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German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

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Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#331
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't theft. If an employee completes all the work assigned to them and passes performance reviews then what you're describing is a suboptimal use of the employees on the part of the employer.

> If an employee completes all the work assigned to them I don't think this was implied in their statement?

Isn't that a case for a performance improvement plan or disciplinary review then? Sounds more like bad management to me.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And is treated as a criminal matter. But the manager telling employees to clock out before their shift ends is a civil matter.

Most often an employee caught stealing is just fired. If there's significant value involved perhaps the police would get a call. Telling an employee to clock out and keep working is a labor law violation, that's not just a civil matter. It happens, but often with the agreement of the employee. I.e. "I know you're about to hit overtime, so if you clock out I'll give you cash, otherwise I have to send you home."

> if you clock out I'll give you cash

Yes, but on what planet?

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#333
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VW already is owned by the German state of NRW (20% of the voting rights, 11.8% of the equity)

VW is owned by the Porsche family. Audi also shortly owned it. Audi creates the engines for VW, because VW by itself can create nothing much by itself.

Porsche Automobil Holding SE owns about 53% of the voting rights, but only about 35% of the assets, so technically they do not own VW, they just control it.

Audi never owned Volkswagen. Volkswagen has owned Audi since 1964. What is true is that there has been an attempt of Porsche AG (the sports car company, not the capital holding) to take over VW in the late 2000s, but got switcheroo'd and instead taken over by VW.

While Audi does build some engines for VW (especially in the higher-tier sector, which arguably is more of an Audi thing to begin with), VW itself produces engines itself (to name a few, the TSI-, TDI- and TGI-series of engines).

Now, does VW build good cars? It's a hit and miss. I personally drive a New Beetle, and will probably continue to drive it for years, the thing is build like a tank and reliable to a fault. Then you have models that are ... not something I would like to drive.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

…said deletion, which returns your truck to the state of the regulatory art circa 2009, also results in a doubling of fuel economy and about an 80% jump in horsepower.

These percentages seem a bit high compared to what I have seen. I usually see/hear about a 1-3mpg and 10-30% HP. I understand the point you are trying to make but "doubling of fuel economy and about an 80% jump in horsepower" is far from accurate, especially considering the downsides of a delete on every outside of the vehicle

shrug

Speaking from personal experience with a 2023 Chevy Duramax 3500, and a friend with a similar 3/4 ton Powerstroke.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#335

Good for Germany, but it is all too rare to see bad corporate behaviour punished like this. Steal £10k from a company, and you will probably go to prison for a long time. Start a company and steal billions from your customers and/or the tax payer, and you will probably get away with it. I believe Iceland was the only country to jail bankers after the 2008 banking disaster. We are still waiting for the British governm…

[dead]

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you purchase over the course of a day was transported by a diesel truck at some point.

Which likely was very polluting, because thanks to bitching by the trucking industry, they get a pass on emissions via "gliders." They can buy a brand new truck sans engine and drop some terribly polluting piece of crap from several decades ago and bypass all modern emissions regulations.

Tomayto, tohmahto.

The SCR/EGR/DPF regime that's been forced upon truck mfrs is at the ragged edge of reliability and maintainability, not to mention its effects on fuel use. So that regulators who've never heard of Pareto optimization can pursue cutting the final 1% of the emissions that a truck from the 1960s would have.

One badly-tuned mid-80s F700 can produce more particulates in a day than a brand-new diesel truck will in its lifetime, but somehow, the priority is not making it easier for the owners of forty-year-old equipment to update to the standard of...2004, but rather to decrease the number of milligrams per tank (at $infinity cost) of soot that a brand-new engine is producing.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#338
post #243

Good for Germany, but it is all too rare to see bad corporate behaviour punished like this. Steal £10k from a company, and you will probably go to prison for a long time. Start a company and steal billions from your customers and/or the tax payer, and you will probably get away with it. I believe Iceland was the only country to jail bankers after the 2008 banking disaster. We are still waiting for the British governm…

And I think there is a good reason for that. When a company steals billions from customers, the entire company is responsible, and the entire company profits from the crime. So why single out a few executives? Everyone shall be punished: the CEO of course, but also every employee, every shareholder. You have a single VW stock, you are responsible too. So, how do you punish everyone fairly? By fining the company for a…

I don't understand how jailing CEOs doesn't place pressure on CEOs to steer a company to follow the law thereby leading to better long-term outcomes for society as a whole. It also creates an incentive structure where the corrupt systems that currently exist are harder to entrench because there is no bystander effect where everyone can just "blame the system" and go along with things without culpability.

My evidence for my view is basically pointing at all countries with strong rule of law and institutions having less corrupt systems. In so many countries bribery is just considered "the way things are done". Add robust systems for punishments to those with the most authority instead of blaming some abstract entity and watch as all of a sudden the whole system creaks towards accountability. Hasn't this happened reliably in basically every country that enacted and reliably enforced democratic laws?

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#339
post #330
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're adding assumptions that the employee is #1 on salary, and #2 not getting a raise for the additional work. You've changed the assumptions and the situation...

No, the original comment (now flagged) was about salaried employees not working hard enough. The argument was that they weren't working hard enough for their current salary. There was nothing about getting a raise. You made that up.

As far as I can tell, there was nothing about salaries until your comment. There was also nothing (either way) about raises until my recent comment. You asserted that the employees were salaried and wouldn't get a raise.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#340
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If an employee completes all the work assigned to them I don't think this was implied in their statement?

Isn't that a case for a performance improvement plan or disciplinary review then? Sounds more like bad management to me.

Sure, but there's inherent latency between detecting the bad behavior and punishing it. Sometimes that latency is infinite, as tends to be the case in many government jobs.

It's not just a "bad management" issue, and trying to blame it entirely on the company is just as bullshit as blaming it entirely on the worker.

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