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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#331

Post by andrepd »

constantcrying wrote: post #143
andrepd wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a single semester of university I learned more than in 12 years of school. You keep saying this but I have a hard time believing this is true; in fact I'm not even sure what "more" means (objectively) in this context. Let's see, in the 12 years of schooling you've learned at the very least: how to read and write, how to interpret texts, how to read literature, how to compose an essay, how to speak, read, and wri…

In school I spend 8 hours listening to some teacher or playing silly learning games and did some busywork as homework. I never learned for any test or found any of the material particularly interesting. In university I actually had to study, take notes, research the subject, study for many hours, etc. >a ton of mathematics from basic arithmetic to I guess something like calculus and trigonometry and algebra and some…

> Hilarious to say this

Really unnecessary snark, I'm trying to understand your position (unless you're just doing justice to your username!).

Two things:

1. You're not the only person in school. I sympathise that you understood the material quickly and wish you had been presented more advanced stuff (I do so too, it's a valid criticism!). But at least around me I noticed that most people were just barely catching it or even actively struggling. So yes, perhaps more "adept" students should be given more challenging material and students that struggle should be given more support so they're not left behind (interesting discussion to have; this has been touched on elsewhere in this thread), but it's important to realise that unless education is based around a 1:1 teacher–student ratio (unrealistic), this will always be a problem that is hard to work around.

2. You conveniently left out the parts where I mentioned subjects other than maths (I assume you studied maths in uni or an adjacent discipline). School is not just there to teach you whatever you end up needing in your academic or professional life when you're 18 years old. I'm glad I was forced to study history, and read literature, and learn a 2nd and 3rd language, and do physical exercise at least 2× a week, because while I might be curious and study science on my own I sure as shit wouldn't do any of these of my own volition as a kid.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#332

Post by mensetmanusman »

RHSeeger wrote: post #172
PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

Those can all be done with a fixed computer with a small delta of additional effort.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#333

Post by makeitdouble »

Ekaros wrote: post #185
makeitdouble wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prohibition didn't work for booze, doesn't work for drugs. Why would you be expecting better results for this ?

Smoking ban in bars and restaurants seem to work. So doing same with phones in schools during lesson time does not seem unreasonable.

Limited restrictions for specific times and places is totally reasonable, I read the parent comment in a larger scope as it was about stopping addiction.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#334

Post by RHSeeger »

thomastraum wrote: post #278
RHSeeger wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

THIS is it. even all the above reasons are not actual reasons. None of these are a problem. you job is NOT to bring something to school because she forgot it nor to drive her to school if the bus doesnt show up.

> you job is NOT to bring something to school because she forgot it nor to drive her to school if the bus doesnt show up.

No, it's not my job. But it is my job as a parent to make her life easier where it makes sense (when it's not to impactful to my other responsibilities). And dropping off her computer so that she can participate in class does that (and makes her day in school more productive). And picking her up at the bus stop so she doesn't need to walk 5-10 minutes home, or 15-20 minutes to school... is a nice thing to do.

It seems like everyone in this thread against cell phones is arguing from the point of "well, you don't NEED this". It's not about need, it's about better.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#335

Post by bborud »

RHSeeger wrote: post #172
PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

The thing to ask is if these conveniences are more important than the presumable benefits of making the cell phone inaccessible during school hours.

The thing is: these benefits manifest at different time-scales.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#336

Post by RHSeeger »

jairuhme wrote: post #182
RHSeeger wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

These are good examples of why a non-smartphone is valuable and a smartphone is not necessary. Also the linked article states that they will be allowed to use their phone when given circumstances require, which I think covers the cases you outlined

> Also the linked article states that they will be allowed to use their phone when given circumstances require, which I think covers the cases you outlined

Yes. I was discussing things from the thread's title and the arguments in the thread that phones aren't useful at school. The actual action that Finland is taking (Children aren't allowed to use cellphones at school without permission, effectively) is reasonable. But it's also not what the title of this thread says.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#337

Post by RHSeeger »

beej71 wrote: post #296
RHSeeger wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

Dumb phone does all that, too...

1. I don't have a problem with my daughter owning a smartphone and using it reasonably.

2. I'm not buying my daughter a 2nd dumb phone to bring to school with her.

"Bring it but don't use it (or leave it in your locker)" is a reasonable answer to me (and is actually what Finland is doing).

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#338

Post by ysavir »

PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

I agree with your take on the purpose of schools and that smartphones contribute little.

But my concern is that actions like these teach students an additional lesson: That it's okay to coerce people into specific actions or forfeitures if it serves your purposes. Children and teens absorb a lot, and while they don't always absorb the contents of their lectures, they do typically absorb how they're treated and how that implies they can treat others.

The ultimate problem with education (at least in the US, can't speak for other countries) is that students are given very little motivation to participate in the educational process. Their participation is demanded and their disengagement is punished. There's little about the system that actually motivates and rewards their participation. If we really want students to spend less time on smartphones at schools, we should be looking at how we can restructure our approach to education so that students would actually feel encouraged to participate and ignore their smartphones.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#339

Post by makeitdouble »

ndr42 wrote: post #212
makeitdouble wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prohibition didn't work for booze, doesn't work for drugs. Why would you be expecting better results for this ?

If you would like to prohibit e.g. gambling mechanisms in games or social media you need a legal framework and then you investigate and fine the firms that don't adhere to the rules. This works very well in the EU as seen by the example of apple and facebook last week. It's not perfect but what is?

The EU still largely allows for lucrative gambling mechanisms, they just can't be predatory or deceptive. Which I agree is probably the best approach, coupled with advertisement restrictions etc.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#340

Post by RHSeeger »

dist-epoch wrote: post #225
RHSeeger wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

> If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it Curious what this will lead to. When she'll get a job, if she'll forget her laptop at home, will she call you and ask you to bring it to the workplace?

I expect she'd probably drive home and get it. She doesn't have a car at 13 yrs old though. Nor would I want her walking home from her school at the moment to get it to the tune of 40+ minutes; so calling me is a reasonable option.

Could she get by at school without her computer? Yes. Is her school day more productive with it? Also yes.

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