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Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

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Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#331

Post by [deleted] »

senko wrote: post #307
samspot wrote: post #81

"But on the negative side, stoicism’s Providential claim that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things which seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath (a claim Christianity borrowed from Stoicism) can be used to justify the idea that the rich and powerful are meant to be rich and powerful, that the poor and downtrodden are meant to be poor and downtrodden, and that even the worst actions ar…

> stoicism’s Providential claim that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things which seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath Having read a bunch about stoicism, I've never heard/read this claim. Stoicism (AIUI) is basically "shit happens, learn to deal with it, could be worse". While it provides a coping mechanism, this is a far cry from "things are actually perfect".

[deleted]

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#332

Post by scantis »

gunian wrote: post #324
scantis wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the story oh Hiob/Job,he is unaffected in his behavior and the trust instilled in him from others, which clearly discouble his person from his misfortune. In the original there is no word for faith, believe or trust only for character. Job is of good character despite his misfortune, that makes him a man of God.

isn't it crazy an all powerful being would abuse a person to teach them some vague lesson? like truly if you think about it objectively how is that different from the Mike Vick dog fighting scandal

Interesting take.

I may imagin Job being as class with core attributes, integrity and commitment, and the variable attributes like wife, wealth, family etc. You can have billions of different instances of Job and the variable attributes may change over time. If integrity and commitment are unphased by that, the instance of Job is reliable. It is Jobs choice to be reliable, no matter his attributes.

Mistreating dogs changes their core attributes and makes them less reliable. They might be rehabilitated, but this crucial part is not their choice.

This is how I would see the difference. What do you think?

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#333

Post by gunian »

scantis wrote: post #332
gunian wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't it crazy an all powerful being would abuse a person to teach them some vague lesson? like truly if you think about it objectively how is that different from the Mike Vick dog fighting scandal

Interesting take. I may imagin Job being as class with core attributes, integrity and commitment, and the variable attributes like wife, wealth, family etc. You can have billions of different instances of Job and the variable attributes may change over time. If integrity and commitment are unphased by that, the instance of Job is reliable. It is Jobs choice to be reliable, no matter his attributes. Mistreating dogs c…

i see the human and the dog as classes that inherit from the same base class with slightly different attributes such as computational power, healing, running speed etc

isnt your comment like saying abuse a dog if its reliable no matter the attributes it is a good dog? abusing people also changes their core attributes which is what trauma is and by this logic poofy guy in the sky is an abuser or a slaver

how do people reconcile that? the christians that raised me used to beat me into believeing wondering if HN has a more philosophical take

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#334

Post by onemoresoop »

surgical_fire wrote: post #210
kittikitti wrote: post #148

I absolutely hate Stoicism. It's used by people as a way to shut me up when I'm expressing negativity about something "I can't control". Almost everything about our lives, especially as we transition to this rent based economy, is out of our control. Stoicism just creates lonely people who are obsessed with controlling things and others.

> I absolutely hate Stoicism. You should exercise nore temperance. It is futile to hate things you can't control.

The world is varied and that is a good thing. Wouldn't it be boring if everyone practiced the same thing, if everyone thought the same thing? I agree with practicing temperance because this fits me but I can accept perfectly fine that it won't suit everyone.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#335

Post by codr7 »

vitiral wrote: post #280
codr7 wrote: post #277

Thoughts are very powerful, that's why visualization is such a big deal in elite sports etc. Some stoics teach that you should imagine the worst possible outcomes to shift your perception of the current (not quite as terrible) situation. Feels like a very bad idea to me.

Have you tried it? It takes only a minute or so, what's the worst that could happen?

I prefer to spend my energy thinking about what I want instead.

Even if it would make no difference in the world, it still makes me happier.

But it does make a (BIG) difference, thoughts direct energy and energy manifests reality.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#336

Post by scantis »

gunian wrote: post #333
scantis wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting take. I may imagin Job being as class with core attributes, integrity and commitment, and the variable attributes like wife, wealth, family etc. You can have billions of different instances of Job and the variable attributes may change over time. If integrity and commitment are unphased by that, the instance of Job is reliable. It is Jobs choice to be reliable, no matter his attributes. Mistreating dogs c…

i see the human and the dog as classes that inherit from the same base class with slightly different attributes such as computational power, healing, running speed etc isnt your comment like saying abuse a dog if its reliable no matter the attributes it is a good dog? abusing people also changes their core attributes which is what trauma is and by this logic poofy guy in the sky is an abuser or a slaver how do people…

Yes absolut exactly. LUCA comes to mind as a base class. Obviously attributes and methods differ quite greatly, we are not just dogs. To reconcile all abuse in this life sounds great, to the humans class, to the dog class it is probably of little interest.

Yet specific therapy dogs can take a lot of abuse, without ever lashing out. They are great for troubled children.

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#337

Post by vitiral »

codr7 wrote: post #335
vitiral wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried it? It takes only a minute or so, what's the worst that could happen?

I prefer to spend my energy thinking about what I want instead. Even if it would make no difference in the world, it still makes me happier. But it does make a (BIG) difference, thoughts direct energy and energy manifests reality.

How can you know what you want if the hedonic treadmill prevents one from appreciating what they already have?

Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)

#338

Post by tourmalinetaco »

drdude wrote: post #326
codr7 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't take much common sense to realize that someone who's neck deep into grief isn't going to find much comfort in being told something happened for a reason. I happen to believe that everything does happen for a reason, because in general that makes more sense to me and there's no proof either way; but in the middle of the storm it's an extremely difficult position to hold. What people actually do need in thos…

I strongly agree! I'd rather say something truthful and of support, backed by real action and history if actual support instead of saying something trivial. I remember a friend told me such thing when I was grieving (something along the lines of "you have to pray" or something) and I blurted "oh really? so I wasn't praying. so it was my fault? so I needed YOU to remind me at my worst times? what happened to reason?".…

I pray you find God and peace in life.
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