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A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

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Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#331

Post by panick21_ »

Tade0 wrote: post #330
panick21_ wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why bother to improve the safety of a transportation system? Road safety has been improving since the 1940. Would you have said 'why bother' in 1970? Or 1980? And the trend of less people dying isn't some magical automated machine, you have to continue to improve, otherwise the trend can reverse, see the US as an example. And even if you don't care about people and children dying, even if you don't care about 1000s o…

> Road safety has been improving since the 1940. In the west. Over here it has only been a thing since the 90s. > And the trend of less people dying isn't some magical automated machine, you have to continue to improve, Which is happening without the involvement of cycling infrastructure and arguably the mentioned isn't that much of a factor. A while ago here pedestrians finally gained right of way when approaching c…

Reducing the amount of car trips, is how bike lanes improve safety. Even if nothing else convinces you.

If efficiency isn't relevant for you then I don't know what to tell you. Transporting more people, getting them where they need to go at low cost to the person and to society is something most people think is a good thing.

There are not tradeoff, research is pretty clear, improving in biking improves the situation for drivers as well. And the claim that 'people are not willing' is simply because, people are misinformed.

To claim Poland is to hot for biking is freaking ridiculous, its equally ridiculous to claim its to cold. Biking is much more common in places Finland and in the Nordics. And in some places in Switzerland. Poland is mostly flat. Netherlands are also flat and rainy. In places where Poland has improve their bike infrastructure, they have seen adoption. Poland in literally every way is like other nations, so get out of here with your Polish exceptionalism.

Not all post-communist nations are de-urbanizing. Superannuation is a direct result of policy not some 'cultural will'. Infrastructure and policy is deterministic to a far, far greater degree them 'cultural memory'.

Demographics are why you can't have bike lanes? Now you are just flat out ridiculous.

Poland growing economically and many people are moving to Poland, including many poles who left. And in regards to drivers, that an equally crazy claim. Driving a vehicle is not some intellectual job that only a brilliant physicists can do. And the claim that the city can't afford it is equally wrong, much, much poorer society then Poland have managed to run a bus system. Are you fully pricing the roads and the parking? If not then that's how you can get some money, and improve the system.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#332

Post by eru »

vanderZwan wrote: post #318
eru wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've heard, people also blame Britain's modern bland food on WW2. I wonder why Belgium (and France and Germany etc) didn't suffer as much long term damage to their cuisine? Stroopwafels are ok in small amounts. The Pannenkoeken are great, but pretty much the same experience as what I ate growing up in Germany, so they are practically 'invisible' to me. > [...] focus on getting good food from other cultures…

The Netherlands had a famine (created by the Nazi occupiers) that lasted for one winter[0]. England had to ration their food. I did a quick look for famines in WW2, and Germany, Belgium and France are not mentioned as having similar experiences[1]. Then again, skimming through the article: Greece and Austria did have a famine (with more deaths than the Netherlands too), Germany experienced a famine in 1918, and in It…

> England had to ration their food. I did a quick look for famines in WW2, and Germany, Belgium and France are not mentioned as having similar experiences[1].

Huh? England had more food than Europe under Nazi occupation.

Though crucially, the Brits kept their food under rationing for long after the war had ended, and the rationing actually got worse. They were on a major socialist bender.

(France perhaps kept their food culture better, because even though officially they had rationing for quite some time after the war too, people didn't actually follow the rules in France, at least not as much as in Britain. So the 'black' market alleviated the worst of the effects of rationing.)

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#333

Post by vanderZwan »

com wrote: post #232
vanderZwan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also helps that "the car driver is to blame until proven otherwise" is the actual law in the Netherlands, which is motivated precisely because of that power dynamic. Essentially, the responsibility defaults the more dangerous vehicle. (for some reason this always is controversial with a lot of Americans whenever it is brought up in on-line discussions)

Except for trams. They never seem to get the blame, however with their braking distance, I suppose it makes sense.

On top of that, I like to think that on some subconscious level the idea of getting mad at trams and buses feels like getting mad at the elderly who depend on it, and just considered Not Done as a result unless very clearly justified. That is probably not true, but I like to think people reason that way nonetheless

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#334

Post by mp05 »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #314
mp05 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that and I don't reject this sentiment outright, but one makes enemies when engaged in a good faith argument but feels the need to shoehorn their moral stance when nobody asked about it. It is, in fact, not at all relevant to the conversation. The easiest thing is to stay on topic, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not sure that it's necessarily a moral stance for the OP to point out that the most common form of transport is partially responsible for dumping lots of CO2 into the environment, when the discussion is about junctions that prioritise active travel (walking/cycling). In motornormative countries such as the UK/USA (many others too), people are conditioned to only get from A to B via polluting methods (recognising…

I understand that and I don't reject this sentiment outright, but one makes enemies when engaged in a good faith argument but feels the need to shoehorn their self-described "pragmatic, forwards-looking viewpoint" when nobody asked about it.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#335

Post by Doxin »

com wrote: post #232
vanderZwan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also helps that "the car driver is to blame until proven otherwise" is the actual law in the Netherlands, which is motivated precisely because of that power dynamic. Essentially, the responsibility defaults the more dangerous vehicle. (for some reason this always is controversial with a lot of Americans whenever it is brought up in on-line discussions)

Except for trams. They never seem to get the blame, however with their braking distance, I suppose it makes sense.

It's very hard for a tram to unexpectedly do anything. They accelerate slowly, they decelerate slowly. It's entirely obvious when you can come across a tram and when you can't.

Seeing as a tram (nearly) always has right of way, if you get hit by one you clearly weren't paying attention.

Makes sense to me.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#336

Post by Doxin »

legacynl wrote: post #186
aziaziazi wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving lessons in NL also teach you to open your door with your _right_ hand (left is right side drive), that way you turn your shoulder a bit and get in perfect position for controlling blind spot and mirror for eventual bike incoming (or whatever vehicle you missed).

Ive heard this repeated on the BBC before, but it isn't true, at least not for my driving lessons 2 decades ago. I just got told everytime to look over my shoulder for cyclists before opening the door. But never have I heard of anyone being taught to specifically open their door with their right hand

Having taken my driving lessons and test more recently, a couple years ago: I've been told by my instructor that not doing the dutch reach is one of the few items that can result in an instant fail. I think opening the door that way only got formalized somewhat recently.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#337

Post by DirkH »

greener_grass wrote: post #256
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is numerical. There are way more voters riding bikes in the Netherlands than in the UK.

But once upon a time the UK had higher cycling rates than the Netherlands. How did the Netherlands manage to overcome this back in the 70s and the UK has not?

If you built good useful infrastructure people are more likely to want to keep it, use it and defend it.

The UK didn't build good infrastructure to capitalize on the cyclist interest so could not ride the positive wave of a new status quo bias.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#338

Post by DirkH »

beastman82 wrote: post #274
crote wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the reduction in cars due to people switching to cycling makes the infrastructure incredibly cheap . Look at the video in [0]: how much space would you need if every single cyclist was driving a large SUV? Look how smooth the traffic flows through the intersection, how many flyovers would you need to achieve this with cars? Yes, cycle infrastructure does indeed take up a nonzero amount of space. Bu…

> the reduction in cars due to people switching to cycling makes the infrastructure incredibly cheap This is a logical leap of enormous magnitude.

It's an empirical one born of Dutch evidence

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#339

Post by daylight7 »

legacynl wrote: post #186
aziaziazi wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving lessons in NL also teach you to open your door with your _right_ hand (left is right side drive), that way you turn your shoulder a bit and get in perfect position for controlling blind spot and mirror for eventual bike incoming (or whatever vehicle you missed).

Ive heard this repeated on the BBC before, but it isn't true, at least not for my driving lessons 2 decades ago. I just got told everytime to look over my shoulder for cyclists before opening the door. But never have I heard of anyone being taught to specifically open their door with their right hand

I had driving lessons last year and I was taught this. My teacher said the CBR examinator will watch how you open your door when after you drive back to the CBR location. It's not just for checking your blindspot, but also to have more control over the door when there are strong winds.
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