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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#331

Post by freeone3000 »

seadan83 wrote: post #315
blendergeek wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Missouri (as in most US States with capital punishment), the death penalty must separately be approved by the jury after the jury convicts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_Un...

Interesting! Thank you for the additional information. Would it be fair to call this an aberration in the US justice system? Namely that except for death penalty cases, that my previous comment holds? I generally viewed that distinction of guilt finding vs punishment selection as fundamental. This is food for thought -thank you.

The death penalty is unique, in that the crime must be convicted, death chosen as the punishment, and then a second jury formed to actually decide if death is warranted in this case given the guilt.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#332

Post by qingcharles »

game_the0ry wrote: post #55

Does anyone find it deeply disturbing that the justice system will just sit on its own hands when presented with new evidence? It seems like prosecutors are more interested in maintaining a hi conviction rate rather than seeking justice. Judges seem totally apathetic.

It is very hard to get cases reopened, it is true. Once DNA testing came about many convicts tried to get the evidence in their cases tested to prove their innocence, but this took many, many years in a lot of cases.

In fact, getting anything fixed or changed after conviction is a long process. I know someone who was given 100 years extra on his sentence due to an error by the judge, instead of the ~15 he was due. That was two years ago and a simple error like that still hasn't been rectified.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#333

Post by brewdad »

qingcharles wrote: post #328
istjohn wrote: post #250

If we aren't going to abolish the death penalty, we should at least require a higher standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt to carry it out. It should require incontrovertible proof. Circumstantial evidence should not be allowed. Expert testimony should be barred. The evidence must be conclusive, plain, and certain to every member of the jury. This would allow you to execute, e.g., mass shooters who give th…

There's almost never incontrovertible proof in a criminal trial. Even if the suspect is on camera confessing. The sheer number of people who confessed to crimes and were then found innocent through DNA evidence is perturbing.

Maybe that’s a clue that we should almost never be using the death penalty.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#334

Post by brewdad »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #102
voisin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction. And that’s the only way the third point (had the items in the car) was known (from the girlfriend).

No, they knew the items were in the car because they searched his car and found the items. He has not, as far as I know, offered any alternative explanation of how he came into possession of a murder victim's random personal items.

Nor is he required to give an explanation. The prosecutor must prove that possession of the items leads to proof of guilt.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#335

Post by xapata »

diogenes_atx wrote: post #314
lolinder wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the ruler and calculator in fact belonged to the victim that is an important clarification of your "the police did not find the victim's property in Williams' car", and your reaction is unnecessarily dismissive. Just acknowledge the error and move on, no need for sarcastic defensiveness.

Even if the police were able to establish that the ruler and calculator belonged to the victim, it is merely circumstantial evidence. It does not prove Williams was the killer. Here is a quick summary of the main issues: (1) There is no reliable evidence that Williams is guilty of the crime; (2) The DNA evidence from the crime scene does not match Williams; (3) Numerous legal experts, including St. Louis County Prose…

Isn't the jury responsible for determining what's reliable evidence?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#336

Post by atoav »

analog31 wrote: post #323
MikeAmelung wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just helping everyone understand that your important clarification, was in fact, wrong. Since I wasn't on the jury, I can't say whether or not I would have been ok with the death penalty in this case, although the murder was particularly heinous.

As I understand it, you have to be OK with the death penalty, to be on a capital jury.

Of all the situations within which it would be morally okay to lie..

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#337

Post by komali2 »

xapata wrote: post #335
diogenes_atx wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the police were able to establish that the ruler and calculator belonged to the victim, it is merely circumstantial evidence. It does not prove Williams was the killer. Here is a quick summary of the main issues: (1) There is no reliable evidence that Williams is guilty of the crime; (2) The DNA evidence from the crime scene does not match Williams; (3) Numerous legal experts, including St. Louis County Prose…

Isn't the jury responsible for determining what's reliable evidence?

Kind of, They can also be instructed to ignore certain evidence, or certain evidence can be barred from being shown to them.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#338

Post by sitkack »

tptacek wrote: post #283
droopyEyelids wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but circumstantial evidence is seldom enough to have the DA bring a case to trial because it is weak evidence. At least, thats my impression im not a lawyer.

My understanding is that the opposite is closer to the truth: most cases are made on circumstantial evidence. Jury instructions apparently tell jurors not to weight it any differently than direct evidence.

What does that mean? That they makeup spurious causal chains and believe that is reality?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#339

Post by atoav »

harshreality wrote: post #311
wpm wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Circumstantial. There are a 1000 different ways he could have obtained those items without committing a murder. Prove that having them is proof positive he killed someone.

I don't think there are 1000 different ways to get both a ruler and a laptop that belonged to the same murder victim.

[1] Ruler is in the folded laptop, laptop gets stolen, laptop is sold, ruler inside, buyer is told he can keep the cool ruler.

[2] Murderer specifically tries to pin the murder on someone else. Someone else being prosecuted is a good way to live free after, gifts his laptop and a ruler to the suspect or leaves them somewhere where they are discovered and taken.

Is that unlikely? Is it more unlikely than a murderer keeping the laptop and ruler from a victim, tying him to the murder?

For me this alone would be absolutely insufficient evidence, to sentence someone to death. The ease with which some here would do this shocks me.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#340

Post by DandyDev »

WheatMillington wrote: post #260
plandis wrote: post #236

It’s sad that the US government unnecessarily deprived a human being of their right to life. I hope one day the people involved are prosecuted for this premeditated murder.

State executions are literally, by definition, not murder.

Legally they aren't, morally you could argue they are.
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