Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#331

Post by lowbloodsugar » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:05 PM UTC

dgrin91 wrote: post #99

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

This is a very naive way of thinking about debt. Cash has a time value. Cash now is worth more than cash later. I have a mortgage. This mortgage is worth more than the cash I own. That doesn't mean I'm bankrupt. The mortgage is paid on a fixed schedule over 30 years, and during those 30 years I'll have a home and be able to accrue other assets. If I didn't get a mortgage then I would still be saving for my home. The…

>The mortgage is paid on a fixed schedule over 30 years

But now imagine that you are never allowed to pay it off: you only pay the interest. And the debt will be passed to your children, and their children. This is the US Govt debt.

In feudal times, you worked for your lord and master. If you didn't pay, armed men would come and take your stuff. In modern times, you still work for your lords and masters, and if you don't pay, armed men will come and take your stuff. How they did this was to create an income tax, and then have their cronies in the house and senate spend more and more and never "pay off the mortgage".

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#332

Post by dmitrygr » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:05 PM UTC

ko27 wrote: post #327

noirbot wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…

It's simple, EU law says Apple had to pay taxes at that time. Apple's ignorance of EU law is not an excuse, this doesn't work for individuals, why should it work for big multinational companies? Ireland doesn't have the power alone to overturn these kinds of laws, unless, of course, they decide to leave EU. Apple's decision to put their trust completely in Ireland officials and sidestep the EU is their own mistake. R…

> Apple's ignorance of EU law is not an excuse

> Ireland doesn't have the power alone to overturn these kinds of laws

How was apple to know what ireland could and could not do? Why should they have to? Irish government said to apple that the rules are as such. The precedent this sets is that companies should not trust governments' words, instead each company should somehow interpret the laws themselves, each (surely) in their own way. Are we sure we want to set this precedent?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#333

Post by zoobab » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:05 PM UTC

fifticon wrote: post #271

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That ultimately the taxes owed should probably be paid out to the countries where the sale occurs. This is hard to implement in practice. Imagine selling in a country with 50% tax, and having a country with 10% somehwere, anywhere in the world. For easier math, let's say you buy dildos from a chinese manufacture for 1eur (including shipping), and sell them for 11eur to end customers. You've just earned 10eur, and y…

That is not a fictional example, in case any might still be wondering. I worked many years for an american/canadian/global company in europe. The software WE developed would be owned by a separate company entity. Whenever we sold "OUR" software systems to our real local customers, "we" would 'borrow/rent' OUR software from that separate entity, at a hefty silly price. Incidentally, that silly price was so high, that…

Ikea does the same with everything they sell in their stores, the stores have to licence design rights from the Netherlands, where royalties are only taxed a few percent. All the stores imposable amount are reduced to zero.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#334

Post by Nasrudith » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:06 PM UTC

immibis wrote: post #207

gzer0 wrote: post #50

I found some rather troubling aspects within the ruling itself: 1. Retroactive application of arm's length principle The Court's reliance on the arm's length principle, despite acknowledging it's not required by EU law, is problematic. As stated in paragraph 124: > "Article 107(1) TFEU gives the Commission the right to check whether the level of profit allocated to such branches... corresponds to the level of profit…

> This retroactive application of a principle not explicitly required by law at the time of the tax rulings is unfair and creates legal uncertainty for businesses. I don't see any problem with this. They knew they were gaming the system, and knew they could get in trouble for it. The law is NOT a computer program where all outputs can be fully predicted from the source code - it also takes common sense into account.…

I expect to see very abusive definitions of 'gaming the system' under such a law such that anything which is the slightest inconvenience is viewed as gaming the system. Just like how common sense isn't common.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#335

Post by zoobab » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:08 PM UTC

pulse7 wrote: post #162

Rinzler89 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't with Ireland per se, as if Ireland wouldn't do it, then Netherlands, Luxembourg, Cyprus, Bulgaria or someone else will gladly take Apple's 13 billion at the expense of the other members of union. The right fix would be EU wide legislation to prevent EU member states of fighting against each other on who can screw over the taxpayers by providing the biggest tax breaks in exchange for corporations' brea…

Making a tax deal to pay only 1% or 0.005% for a specific company is an illegal aid - regardless of the EU member country ...

I remember that Ireland had a 0% tax on patent royalties till 2015, and till 2020 for companies that used the scheme before.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#336

Post by dotancohen » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:08 PM UTC

ko27 wrote: post #327

noirbot wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…

It's simple, EU law says Apple had to pay taxes at that time. Apple's ignorance of EU law is not an excuse, this doesn't work for individuals, why should it work for big multinational companies? Ireland doesn't have the power alone to overturn these kinds of laws, unless, of course, they decide to leave EU. Apple's decision to put their trust completely in Ireland officials and sidestep the EU is their own mistake. R…

In the case of conflicting laws, who prevails? If the Irish pass a law that Apple can not pay certain taxes, does that not override EU law? Usually in cascading situations, the more local entity wins, n

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#337

Post by itake » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:10 PM UTC

ghusto wrote: post #321

hayd wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expats aren’t double taxed but you need to file tax returns to offset taxable income that’s already been taxed. There are specific agreements to avoid double taxation but it’s unclear/unlikely the IRS are just going to hand back money Apple already paid (it likely falls outside of what’s required in those international agreements). Companies, and people, make decisions based on the tax laws of the day eg deciding to…

> Expats aren’t double taxed but you need to file tax returns to offset taxable income that’s already been taxed. There are specific agreements to avoid double taxation Glad to hear it, because what Americans told me (that they get taxed for the same money they paid tax on in their host country) is bonkers. EDIT: Seems there's some disagreement ;) The other commentor echoes what I've heard from Americans living in Eu…

its complex..

The USA has FEIE, (no federal taxes the first $120k/yr), but not all states (like Cali) honor that and may still charge you state income tax.

and FEIE doesn't exempt you from self-employment taxes.

and doesn't exempt non-earned income (dividends, etc.).

Americans can come out ahead (if they earn less than $120k/yr and live in a 0% tax country). But a non-American (like Canadian) doing the samething, would have less restrictions.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#338

Post by eesmith » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:10 PM UTC

Rinzler89 wrote: post #125

izacus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain where exactly did Ireland gain benefit from not collecting these taxes?

Because getting even And that's the problem right there. It's a constant race to the bottom between EU states where the EU taxpayers are the loosers and the corpos are the winners.

While "The EU head office said that Ireland granted such lavish tax breaks to Apple that the company's effective corporate tax rate on its European profits dropped from 1 percent in 2003 to a mere 0.005 percent in 2014." https://apnews.com/article/apple-european-union-tech-b1575db...

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#339

Post by AlchemistCamp » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:12 PM UTC

kasperni wrote: post #155

Aerroon wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe governments need to stop spending 40-50% of the entire GDP? For example, the US federal government + state governments spend about $10 trillion a year. The US has a GDP of about $25 trillion. And the US isn't exactly known as a high tax country. France is estimated to be at 58%...

Universal healthcare and welfare systems aren’t free.

No but some countries such as Singapore provide them at a far lower cost than any western country.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#340

Post by zoobab » Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 6:12 PM UTC

Yizahi wrote: post #19

matthewmorgan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Luxembourg?

All offshores should be either forced to increase min taxes, regulation and financial transparency (i.e. cease being offshores), or should be expelled from everywhere and sanctioned. I wonder how people aren't protesting this crap, which allows to directly steal their money. But whatever, I guess scary migrants working for slave wage are more important for people that multinational megacorps, as long as they are chur…

Biden pushed other countries to adopt a minimum corporate tax of 15%, but those taxi breaks on patent royalties might be another loophole. Anyone to clarify the link between the 2?