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Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

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Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#331

Post by ssl-3 »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #324
ssl-3 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a mindset that I often run into with IRL discussions that revolves around the premise that if a person has some minimal essentials met by doing nothing, then they will have no motivation to ever improve their situation at all. That if a person can afford to accomplish nothing but still have enough money to smoke weed and play video games, then all anyone will ever do is smoke weed and play video games. I don'…

The American consumerist economy is already heavily driven by keeping up with the Jones's. Why would that change just because we let people that can't work eat, shit in a toilet, and sleep indoors? Yes, teenagers can be lazy and get stuck in unproductive situations. Some adults even can! That doesn't mean that's what the majority of people want to do, and there are more effective ways of getting people unstuck than t…

"Hey, bro. I noticed you haven't been working or paying your bills. Don't know what's up with that.

Feels bad, bro. Must be rough.

Anyway, I went ahead and turned off your lights at the meter and posted an eviction notice on your door.

You've still got two weeks to turn it around if you can find a way."

--life and landlords

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#332

Post by s1artibartfast »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #267
beejiu wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have different definitions of UBI, but in my mind 'basic' doesn't translate to quitting your job and not working. People in a functioning society still have to work.

I read it as all the human essentials are covered without work (sufficiently nutritious food, safe, clean, shelter with sufficient heating and water for basic needs, basic healthcare, basic internet, and a small extra for discretionary spending) with the assumption that most people will happily do some work to upgrade their circumstances and get more fun and interesting food/entertainment/shelter. If quitting your jo…

The system breaks down when people get to democratically vote for their own UBI. Why work extra for a cool car or nice vacation when you can just vote for more benefits?

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#333

Post by [deleted] »

jewayne wrote: post #188
ixwt wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a podcast or video about this exact same issue in... Sweden? Some anecdata from people receiving welfare, but couldn't start a job or a business because if they received any money, they get nothing from welfare and wouldn't be able to support themselves. This resulted in people that were trying to start a business not get paid for their work (I believe one of the anecdata was a photographer) because doing s…

> Personally, I'm a big fan of the "for every $2 you make, you get $1 less from UBI/Welfare" That's..that's not UBI, at all. UBI is universal . If there are any means tests whatsoever , that's not UBI.

[deleted]

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#334

Post by drekipus »

travisjungroth wrote: post #308
mucle6 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a progressive tax system like what we have? (ignoring capital gains taxes)

UBI represented as a progressive tax system would be so wildly different from our current brackets it would be qualitatively different. Some brackets would be negative.

"negative brackets" is a truly great idea and would help many affected by poverty.

but that's not what adherence to UBI is about. UBI is about chasing an impossible utopia and burning ourselves in the process so that we have greater net inequality.

Stick to the plan. Call out anyone who tries to make UBI work by watering it down from our idealized end-goal as nay-sayers. Clutch to random hypothesis'.

It's the only way we can bludgeon them through democratic or revolutionary means.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#335

Post by Dylan16807 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #280
ixwt wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Universal just implies everyone gets it. If the system includes a gradual fall off, it's still universally applied to everyone, no?

Everyone making less than 138% of the federal poverty level (FPL) qualifies for free healthcare. I dont think most people would say that the USA has universal healthcare. The same is true here. If you make $0, you get $12K UBI. If you make $24K, you get $0 UBI. Is that universal?

Assuming there's no other income tax on the first $24K you make, it's a bit aggressive but it's still a valid form of UBI and an improvement on the status quo.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#336

Post by kiba »

ilaksh wrote: post #22

$1000 is not enough to quit their jobs or get a nice apartment. They could move slightly closer to work if they have to commute. It's not enough for a real tuition or to support them to study instead of work. I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. I suspect that you need to get international cooperation…

A thousand dollars is enough to pay for theater class, three and a half semester worth. It is almost enough to pay for five months of personal coaching. It would definitely cover a voice acting workshop that I am going to attend.

Granted, some form of education are cheaper than other, especially those that can easily be self taught. I spent hundred of dollars on books and materials to learn electronics. Maybe I could spent less to learn the materials. Really, the hard part is actually spending the time and effort actually building circuits and experimenting.

If you're skilled and persistent enough, you could learn mathematics and other skills for very low cost. However, tutors and coaches are worth their money even though they are expensive, because they help demolish obstacles and get you unstuck faster so that you can progress faster.

A thousand dollars a month? Please, that's enough to pay for a lot of education like you wouldn't believe. It would make the money I spent on my continuous education look like a drop in the bucket. The difference is that I am not pursuing a degree from overpriced schools, but real knowledge and skills.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#337

Post by ssl-3 »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #327
stubish wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that I haven't seen discussed is retirement. When you have a high paying job, you can retire early and still maintain your desired standard of living (and most people do, because most people don't enjoy their job and that is why we call it work). So a pretty uninspiring job like plumbing would end up paying a very high salary. Or stressful jobs like nurse or doctor. What happens when people doing these crit…

Honestly, I think it would even be acceptable to punish UBI "freeloaders" with, like, austerity. Like they get slow(ish) internet, a 10x10 foot studio apartment with a toilet, a stand-up shower, a counter with a mini-fridge and a hotplate (or premade food rations, whichever is cheaper), and a single window with a shitty view. Nutritious food, clean water. And then, if you have proof of another habitable residence, yo…

There are many who would feel blessed with a 10x10 studio apartment with a (safe, clean, minimal) bathroom in the corner and barely enough room for good sleep, with shitty Internet and a bad view, and a barely-functional kitchen (and heat when needed, and maybe even cooling when needed).

(I've stayed in cheap-ish hotel rooms that are a lot larger and more flexible than that. I've also stayed in far worse.)

And that's... well, fuck: Isn't that OK? Is it not OK for some people who have (for whatever reason) failed to thrive and climb ahead at the present time to have these things?

(I think it's OK to give all people means with which to limit how far they can fall, even if that means that many quasi-successful people are essentially including this as a line-item that they pay to themselves on their own tax bill.

I also think that it is imperfect, and that we mustn't let imperfection stand in the way of general progress.

I mean: Nothing is fucking perfect. But the mere existence of ubiquitous imperfection doesn't somehow mean that positive progress cannot ever be made.)

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#339

Post by Dylan16807 »

smileysteve wrote: post #238
vharuck wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right to fear employers who want to avoid claiming employees so that they don't have to comply with, for example, safety laws. But shadow work also includes situations with "casual" business relationships, like a couple who hires a nanny to watch their kids 40 hours a week. Both parties may feel that complying with tax and labor laws is too much of a burden.

> Both parties may feel that complying with tax and labor laws is too much of a burden. That's - a way - to phrase: - facilitate an effective 7.5% pay cut (employer paid Social Security / Medicare / Medicaid tax) - avoid being properly compensated for overtime (assuming non exempt salary), - and make claiming unemployment, disability benefits more difficult When you refer to both, can you emphasize a specific burden…

> facilitate an effective 7.5% pay cut (employer paid Social Security / Medicare / Medicaid tax)

The employer skipping out on taxes is not a "pay cut".

And the employee also gets to skip out on taxes.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#340

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #282
smileysteve wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re-introducing progressive tax rates would be a small start; Though, allegedly, a majority of Americans don't comprehend progressive tax rates. Many state income taxes reach the top income tax rate before the federal poverty rate (ie The federal tax rates are poorly graduated; the first, 10% rate, cuts at $11,600 over to 12%; and then we jump 10% to 22%, only for the next bracket to have only 2% bracket gap again. Im…

2024 tax brackets Tax rate Single filers Married couples filing jointly Married couples filing separately Head of household 10% $11,600 or less $23,200 or less $11,600 or less $16,550 or less 12% $11,601 to $47,150 $23,201 to $94,300 $11,601 to $47,150 $16,551 to $63,100 22% $47,151 to $100,525 $94,301 to $201,050 $47,151 to $100,525 $63,101 to $100,500 24% $100,526 to $191,950 $201,051 to $383,900 $100,526 to $191,1…

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