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EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#331

Post by tonynator »

notnaut wrote: post #259
tonynator wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The free market would solve the first two, the next two aren't even crimes currently, and with the last the crime is the violence/vandalism not someone telling a fib.

“The free market would fix it” quite spiritually similar to “god will provide” or “prayer solves everything.” Maybe, maybe with an unwieldy amount of time the rubes would all die out as they administer snake oil to themselves and their families, the pyramid schemes all collapse under the weight of their inability to produce the results their funders sought, and the collective, unorganized and ungovernmented multitude…

Poisoning people isn't speech. If I sell you a product that actually gives you cancer and say it doesn't, the crime shouldn't be that I lied, it should be that I gave you cancer.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#332

Post by paledot »

pantalaimon wrote: post #14
elric wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting thread ... they claim they won't be compliant, which I applaud, but what will happen is that unwitting Signal users will end up being targeted by law enforcement. There are already precedents of people with "secure" phones or encrypted messaging apps being targeted, such as the Sky ECC case.

If Signal can’t be installed or updated via the App Store anyone, that’s already enough to exclude 99.9% of all users - no need to involve law enforcement.

Fortunately, the EU is also mandating app store competition. :)

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#333

Post by squigz »

tonynator wrote: post #329
katbyte wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literal people on this site arguing that people should be free from consequences. Replies to my comment here saying “defamation shouldn’t exist Alex jones did nothing wrong”

He didn't. Sharing a conspiracy theory should not be illegal just because it makes people upset. Horrifyingly anti-American precedent

Honestly, pretending that that's all he was responsible for is far more anti-American.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#334

Post by brigandish »

snowpid wrote: post #261
brigandish wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I broadly agree but present two caveats. Firstly, that Germany's descent into fascism and anti-semitism were both helped by the lack of free speech. Blasphemy laws prevented the anti-semitism preached from the pulpits to be challenged, and hate speech laws actually helped the Nazis publicise their movement[1]. > Rather than deterring the Nazis and countering anti-Semitism, the many court cases served as effective pub…

This post makes no sense. Your both cases are an example where was too much "free speech" (preeches) and too few ( govermental fight against Stürmer) I guess the analysis about Nazis in the Weimarer Republik are far more complex than a matter of free speech. It tells a lot that I never heard historians seriously discussing it in this context.

The preaching was free but the challenges were not due to blasphemy laws, thus more free speech would allow challenges, which we know reduces the problem of bad speech.

> It tells a lot that I never heard historians seriously discussing it in this context.

If you got the first part wrong then the second is only telling in the other direction.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#335

Post by tonynator »

squigz wrote: post #333
tonynator wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't. Sharing a conspiracy theory should not be illegal just because it makes people upset. Horrifyingly anti-American precedent

Honestly, pretending that that's all he was responsible for is far more anti-American.

That is all he did.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#336

Post by t0bia_s »

Wytwwww wrote: post #321
t0bia_s wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shutting down so called Russian-propaganda sites on DNS level, hate speech regulations, mantra about disinformation regulations, even though nobody can define disinformation legislatively, remove access to bank accounts because of supporting protest against goverment, unavailable books to buy that are too extreme even though few years ago they were fine... It's all driven by politics.

> Shutting down so called Russian-propaganda sites That's a significant disadvantage democracies that embrace freedom of speech have, though. China/Russia/other authoritarian shitholes have a very easy time shaping, blocking or severely limiting information spread from the outside world. Trying to play nice against a side which is cheating and playing dirty isn't exactly a winning strategy...

If one loves democracy, the argument runs, one must crush its enemies by no matter what means. And who are its enemies? It always appears that they are not only those who attack it openly and consciously, but those who ‘objectively’ endanger it by spreading mistaken doctrines. In other words, defending democracy involves destroying all independence of thought. George Orwell

https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

Btw even Nazi radio broadcasting was not blocked during WW2 in GB.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#337

Post by account42 »

katbyte wrote: post #307
account42 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should I be able to make wild claims about my product to trick you into buying it? False claims about my buisness performance to pump the stock? If you also abolish the notion of intellectual property as well as trade secrets, both of which are severe limitations on free speech, then sure. Otherwise it's just another case of wanting free speech when it suits the company but wanting to restrict it when it doesn't. >…

Problem is the damage is already done. You lost your job. Your kid committed suicide. The mod has murdered. You can’t undo that, not to mention it not illegal to fire someone because if you read some false facts in the paper

Punishing someone for "bad" speech is also not going to prevent that.

Both approaches rely on punishment disincentivizing others from behaving in the same way. Except that "hate speech" laws are a bludgeon that a) can be easily circumvented by clever speech that is still going to encourage violence and b) is guaranteed to be used sooner or later as a pretense to silence dissidents whose speech would not result in violence. They are really only one tiny step removed from trying to combat thought crimes. Better to disincentivize the behavior that is actually a problem for society (i.e. violence) rather than something as vague and subjective as "hate speech" that may or may not lead to it.

> Not to mention it not illegal to fire someone because if you read some false facts in the paper

Some countries have strong worker protections that actually make it quite hard to fire someone without a good reason.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#338

Post by ivan_gammel »

paledot wrote: post #332
pantalaimon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Signal can’t be installed or updated via the App Store anyone, that’s already enough to exclude 99.9% of all users - no need to involve law enforcement.

Fortunately, the EU is also mandating app store competition. :)

Only within EU which means that EU will have certain influence over those alt stores.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#339

Post by jonaharagon »

theshrike79 wrote: post #283
godelski wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft: Replay Apple: Their CSAM detection system that was lambasted not too long ago[0] [0] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Expanded_Protections_...

Ahh, the Misunderstanding Olympics of 2021 The Apple system was pretty much the best way this could be done short of having a 100% reliable "AI" system on-device detecting bad stuff.

> The Apple system was pretty much the best way this could be done

This may be true, and yet it's also true that it was still a terrible plan. This is exactly why it simply shouldn't be done at all.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#340

Post by AlexeyBelov »

tonynator wrote: post #327
Spivak wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a naive take that I'm honesty not sure how to respond. Like I mean this with zero judgement in the world, are you 14? Because this is word for word what I would have said at that age. And dgmr, I was certain and steadfast that I was correct and everyone else were just idiots. It's difficult to explain why this is wrong because the very premise that ideas are even in competition in the manner you're sugge…

Surely there must be some reasonable explanation for why you are still right and correct even though your ideas constantly lose to others without censorship. It can't be that you're just wrong. Progress is relative.

What ideas are you talking about for example?
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