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Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

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Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#331

Post by alt227 »

madeofpalk wrote: post #330
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope it is less expensive. So do the shareholders. Less cost == more profit.

You say this as if it's a bad thing? I don't see the need to be pesemistic about this.

The issue is in a capitalist society that saving of cost is not going towards a more efficient production method, or even being passed on to the consumer, its going in the pockets of the board and shareholders.

Effectively this news story can be reduced to 'Plastic lid swapped for new plastic lid which makes company more money.'

Its not cynical, its the truth.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#332

Post by madeofpalk »

alt227 wrote: post #331
madeofpalk wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this as if it's a bad thing? I don't see the need to be pesemistic about this.

The issue is in a capitalist society that saving of cost is not going towards a more efficient production method, or even being passed on to the consumer, its going in the pockets of the board and shareholders. Effectively this news story can be reduced to 'Plastic lid swapped for new plastic lid which makes company more money.' Its not cynical, its the truth.

'The public' does accrue benefits from a cheaper and less environmentally toxic production method though.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#333

Post by donatj »

phil21 wrote: post #320
ArchOversight wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my local jurisdiction (a part of the US) the recycling bin is only allowed to be filled with cardboard and metal cans. Glass/plastic/contaminated cardboard and others are all required to go into the trash. Which makes no sense, glass is infinitely recyclable, yet it is not, it is instead brought to the local dump. Now here's the kicker, I was talking the to the trash collection people around the winter break (tip…

> Which makes no sense, glass is infinitely recyclable, yet it is not, it is instead brought to the local dump. It's reusable, sure. Glass milk bottles you return to be washed and refilled are great. Glass recycling though makes little sense in many areas of the world. You are basically trucking sand around. Just far less efficiently. Glass takes about 40% less energy to melt than sand does, so you need to have a rel…

Yes, but

https://theweek.com/news/science-health/960931/why-is-the-wo...

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#334

Post by themaninthedark »

gwbas1c wrote: post #307
lobochrome wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first principle hack here is to put the waste stream separation burden on the consumer. Here in Japan we are sorting and packaging our trash all at home and putting it out to be collected individually. There is - cardboard (to be cut flat and bundled with string) - unlaminated and clean paper (to be bundled with string or collected in a paper bag) - PET (clean, no bottle cap, label removed) - Milk cartons above 1…

> I spend about an hour sorting trash each week That gets to the clear difference between Japanese culture and US culture. Americans will sort their trash, but they won't spend that much time sorting their trash. Japanese culture has an immense amount of civic pride and responsibility that isn't present in the US.

>Collection happens at central points shared by a few houses. So if you fuck it up, your neighbors will know.

>Collection happens through individual small trucks and the guy check the items and sort them directly into larger bins. If you made a mistake they will label it and leave it behind.

Part of it is the fact that neighbors police each other. Culturally we tend to reject when others are intruding in our business. Note the disdain for HOA and busybodies.

Having that culture might be a good thing in respect to recycling but it is also a brake to other societal change as it is a consecutive force.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#335

Post by slothtrop »

ccc3 wrote: post #286
jrochkind1 wrote: post #223

> Currently only about 3% of PP products are being recycled in the United States, but it is becoming more widely accepted So now the relatively small amount of mass in the cap is just as recyclable as the bottle itself -- neither are actually going to be recycled. There's nothing to see here but marketing. And a an interesting engineering puzzle solved, sure. "How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Woul…

This is a pessimistic, anti-progress perspective. As you point out, there are plenty of other problems in the recycling chain. But this is a small step in the right direction. And the investment here is pretty small too. $1.2m probably covered a handful of engineers for around a year plus the cost of tooling. Given that Heinz sells a lot of ketchup, I would expect that the impact/dollar here is pretty high. Also, I’d…

It isn't anti-progress. It's identifying a lack of it. A step in the right direction would be developments that either definitely lead to more recycling in practice, or a reduction in materials used.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#336

Post by slothtrop »

drewdevault wrote: post #263
jrochkind1 wrote: post #223

> Currently only about 3% of PP products are being recycled in the United States, but it is becoming more widely accepted So now the relatively small amount of mass in the cap is just as recyclable as the bottle itself -- neither are actually going to be recycled. There's nothing to see here but marketing. And a an interesting engineering puzzle solved, sure. "How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Woul…

The only genuine path to sustainability is reduction. There is no sustainable way to have disposable single-use packaging that you throw away when the bottle empties. Glass bottles with a deposit to incentivize bottle return, following which they are washed and refilled with new product (ideally locally, with fresh ketchup arriving to local distribution centers in bulk), is a much more reasonable approach.

Bio-degradables are one way. Some companies are spearheading this, but investment doesn't appear very high. GDNP.V in Canada.

I think a multi-pronged approach that includes but is not limited to reduction will be necessary.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#337

Post by 0xffff2 »

donatj wrote: post #333
phil21 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which makes no sense, glass is infinitely recyclable, yet it is not, it is instead brought to the local dump. It's reusable, sure. Glass milk bottles you return to be washed and refilled are great. Glass recycling though makes little sense in many areas of the world. You are basically trucking sand around. Just far less efficiently. Glass takes about 40% less energy to melt than sand does, so you need to have a rel…

Yes, but https://theweek.com/news/science-health/960931/why-is-the-wo...

I only skimmed this particular article, but the problem it discusses isn't relevant to glass, in which the particle shape doesn't matter. Am I missing something that makes it relevant?

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#338

Post by throwawaaarrgh »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #180
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably from added stabilizers and not acidity. Molds do well with acidic food, as well as sugary and salty

Heinz ketchup ingredients: TOMATO CONCENTRATE FROM RED RIPE TOMATOES, DISTILLED VINEGAR, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, CORN SYRUP, SALT, SPICE, ONION POWDER, NATURAL FLAVORING. -- https://www.heinz.com/products/00013000006408-tomato-ketchup

It does look like there's no preservatives added to heinz. It appears the lack of mold growth in ketchup comes down to a combination of lower pH from the vinegar, and low water content by cooking it out of the tomatoes. According to some food safety experts, it's possible for mold to grow on ketchup, less so for pathogens. Keeping it cold will definitely extend the time it would take mold to root.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#339

Post by slothtrop »

alt227 wrote: post #331
madeofpalk wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this as if it's a bad thing? I don't see the need to be pesemistic about this.

The issue is in a capitalist society that saving of cost is not going towards a more efficient production method, or even being passed on to the consumer, its going in the pockets of the board and shareholders. Effectively this news story can be reduced to 'Plastic lid swapped for new plastic lid which makes company more money.' Its not cynical, its the truth.

Wealth creation isn't zero sum. If it was we'd still be quibbling over sticks in caves. In a competitive environment, innovations can and does lead to lower-cost products for consumers, especially from new entrants in the market.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#340

Post by coryrc »

buildsjets wrote: post #273
jrochkind1 wrote: post #223

> Currently only about 3% of PP products are being recycled in the United States, but it is becoming more widely accepted So now the relatively small amount of mass in the cap is just as recyclable as the bottle itself -- neither are actually going to be recycled. There's nothing to see here but marketing. And a an interesting engineering puzzle solved, sure. "How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Woul…

eli5: The bottle is PET and is easily and commonly recycled, if it actually makes it to the recycling facility. About 30% of PET sold in the US actually gets recycled. It's the clear soda bottle plastic. The cap was previously 99% PP and 1% Silicone and was not recyclable at all. The cap is now 100% PP and therefore recyclable in theory, but in practice there are limited facilities that can recycle PP.

It doesn't matter in Seattle, it's too small for the machines to sort. Only recyclable lids over 3 inches are allowed.

And if you can't even recycle it in Seattle...

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