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Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

arxiv.org

331–340 of 404 posts

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#331
post #320
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hypothesis is that there is some objective definition of these phase changes such that the precise definitions of life etc doesn't matter. My personal stab at an objective defintion: There is a sudden emergence of many more pathways for decay of the universe through entropy. The mechanisms that accelerate the creation of these new pathways is the set that includes "life". Now with that base definition, we can talk…

That sounds like metaphysics. The Universe doesn't "want" to increase entropy, entropy increase is simply a consequence of applying basic statistics to matter and energy. There is no mechanism that actively explores various pathways for making entropy increase faster.

> There is no mechanism that actively explores various pathways for making entropy increase faster.

Dark matter?

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#332
post #5

Can't help but wonder, is AI an expected phase transition in the evolution of life in the universe? Is life really just the larval stage of a higher order intelligence?

In the 1980s Gregory Benford explored this with his Galactic Center Saga books. I really enjoyed the series especially the middle one, Great Sky River.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#333
post #164

"Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe? (arxiv.org)" Easily answered: * We don't know how consciousness comes into being, indeed we can't rigorously define it or unambiguously identify its presence or absence. * We believe we have it, but we aren't sure whether other animals and/or objects possess it. * Therefore, based on Occam's razor, we may provisionally assume that all ma…

Hardline materialism is indeed dying and the presumption that all matter possesses a degree of consciousness currently has two major undercurrents: panpsychism and idealism.

Most scientists that operate under the assumption that consciousness, as we experience it, is an emergent property align toward panpsychism, matter and consciousness somehow being co-primitives in the ontology to kickstart reality. But there are many problems with panpsychism, the first being that it's a dualism, that is it requires two separate magic tricks at bootup. Since physics only knows about matter, panpsychism is not considered a scientific theory, just an interesting philosophy. The later problems with it are leftovers from the formerly popular materialist framework. How does the proto consciousness of matter grow to give us the taste of sugar, or love? Where is that conscious property? How to identify it? Etc.

Now, from an Occam's razor's perspective, I think the less popular idealism (consciousness is the primitive, then it boots up matter) is actually the most parsimonious. It's the least intuitive at first, but when you take the time to listen to arguments from a scientific and analytical philosophy standpoint (e.g Don Hoffman, Bernardo Kastrup), it's the only one that actually makes any kind of sense, while in the process solving most of the numerous problems raised in physics and philosophy (e.g. local realism is false, so where is matter when consciousness doesn't experience it? If the probability that we're in the one real reality 1/N, why would we assume that we are? And many more). It also gives us as a bonus that it manages to reconcile those fields with the nondual intuition from traditions that document accounts of people who have lived with that realization (e.g. Buddhism, Advaita, Taoism, Sufism, Christian mysticism).

It does require a profound conceptual paradigm shift. Way deeper than at first glance we realize is necessary. So I generally just recommend that people dive into it by reading or listening to discussions by the people that I've mentioned, rather than knee-jerk responding.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once flying cars are as cheap and easy to own and operate as regular cars, why would anyone buy a non-flying car?

I think you're going to need to explain your position a little better.

Upload, like flying cars, is a particular vision of a scifi future technology which may not come to pass.

You're prognosticating a future "when X...", when that "when" is a very big "if".

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#335
post #244
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sun's power density is approximately the same as compost.

Can you elaborate on that or drop a link that explains more?

Here's a decent stackexchange discussion: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/370899/suns-powe...

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#336
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like metaphysics. The Universe doesn't "want" to increase entropy, entropy increase is simply a consequence of applying basic statistics to matter and energy. There is no mechanism that actively explores various pathways for making entropy increase faster.

This is also an argument that didn't sit well with me when I heard Guillaume Verdon / Beff Jezos on his recent Lex podcast state that the universe wants to produce more entropy, and that life evolved the way it has because it's more efficient at producing heat and entropy than, say, a rock. Perhaps he said that loosely as a figure of speech, because it should be obvious (religious beliefs aside) that the universe doe…

Yes, this "want" of pop science is annoying. I don't see anything lacking with simply using something like "enables", "allows". An environment with sticks allows evolutionary paths that can use sticks. A world with pools of high energy makes it easier for energy-using systems to develop there as opposed to outside of them. A world with light - go figure - makes it possible for light-using systems to subsist.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So hypothetically we observe that there is life somewhere, say beyond our ability to reach. What’s the next step beyond arguing about the math now that this is confirmed?

Then we can stop arguing about the math.

Detecting life would still be a small sample size.

You’d need to detect life or rule it out on a variety of planet sizes, ages and compositions at a variety of distances around a variety of star types, ages and sizes at varying locations in the galaxy before we’d have enough data to make confident predictions.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#338
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the work of Ilya Prigogine - he won a Nobel prize in the 70's for his work on self-organizing complexity. There is a selection force in the universe for increasing complexity, being driven by the dissipation of energy. When you have systems in non-equilibrium, there is a strong pressure to explore the possibility space to find ever more efficient ways to dissipate energy. A bacteria the size of a grain of s…

I absolutely adore the simplicity behind this: Energy must balance, so it flows from high concentrations to lower concentrations. Things that help that flow are selected for. From that springs everything we are. Utterly amazing to me that from a gradient plus some random chemicals plus time equals humans, sex, violence, loss, birth, love, games, music, and so much more. All just to help the earth cool down a little b…

It doesn't help the earth cool down faster, it actually traps energy for longer in metabolic processes. But it does red shift it. The film of muck on the surface that we call life lowers the planet's albedo and the radiation that shines out of it is of a longer wavelength than if it were just reflected.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#339

To my laymen brain this seems very similar to Lee Cronin's Assembly theory. Curious to understand more about the difference.

The two concepts don't preclude each other, but they're not the same concept.

Assembly theory is a theory that tells us that when we observe the complexity of something that is not unoque, we can determine probabilistically from it's complexity the likelihood of it being created by some type of active agent, mind or something. Lee continues with this to speculate a lot more (and I think he's on to something) about time being fundamental and what a mind is. It's sort of a computational complexity theory applied to intelligence.

This "phase transition" hypothesis is basically saying that life is emerging in the universe in a stage akin to recombination[0] as a more stable state, and that the universe without life is a metastable state[1]. This would mean that life will ultimately absorb all matter in the universe, as if it were a phase transition the cosmological principle says that the universe is uniform[2].

It sounds like a pretty idea but I'm not really convinced, phase transitions propagate at the speed of light. An exponential curve where the transition ramps up is am interesting idea to ponder. There are existing fantastic explanations for life that exist that are very interesting that don't require the universe to undergo a phase transition. Simple entropy and the red shifting of energy explain it's existence just fine. Nevertheless, all this research and these attempts to understand what life, consciousness, minds, creative agents and all that are in the context of our universe are really fun and I think all this exploration will bear some delicious fruit.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recombination_(cosmology)

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metastability

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_principle

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