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Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

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Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#331

Post by inkysigma »

scarface_74 wrote: post #233
tpush wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sandboxing had nothing to with any app store, and Android security empathetically doesn't suck.

I just had a coworker say that he surreptitiously installed an app on his son’s phone that allowed him to see everything his son was doing remotely and listen in to his son’s conversations. He showed it to us in action.

It's a difficult security model when the threat actor is a parent who presumably has access to the device and in an unlocked state along with permissions to install anything from anywhere. It's not like the threat actor realistically couldn't (with some effort) see everything the child was doing already just by asking so I don't really see this as a very good threat model.

Sure, Apple might prevent you from installing such applications on devices (though they offer monitoring app usage and websites for parental controls), but that's just because they have a walled garden that could disallow such apps and it's less clear how to weigh app freedom against user safety.

If you're worried about zero days, Android exploits are priced around the same as iOS exploits apparently so take that how you will.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#333

Post by StressedDev »

tomComb wrote: post #329
yieldcrv wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no sanction in the US for monopolies if the market chooses that, you just cant do anticompetitive things in the process or while you have one so simply being in the exact same position is not enough, the details of exactly how you navigate it are more important with that in mind, Apple is still vulnerable based on their behavior, but its not a slam dunk by mere nature of being in the same position for exampl…

But they are not in the exact same position - Apple has a much tighter grip on their App Store than Google, and they don’t even need to: they make money selling the devices.

Apple’s app store policies product users. One thing Apple has done which is very good is regulate iPhone app decelopers.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#334

Post by [deleted] »

TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #250
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't need to strike secret deals to keep out alternative app stores because they've made alternate app stores completely impossible. If the result of this case is "you can have a monopoly as long as your device and ecosystem are 100% locked down", that's terrible!

> If the result of this case is "you can have a monopoly as long as your device and ecosystem are 100% locked down", that's terrible! Monopolies aren’t illegal. Only the abuse of a monopoly position to advance your interest in other markets is illegal. E.g. It’s not illegal to be the only seller of gasoline in the country. It is illegal though to bundle laundry powder with gasoline sales to corner the laundry powder…

[deleted]

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#335

Post by LordKeren »

lolinder wrote: post #312
LordKeren wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they could have avoided this outcome by not paying other companies to not compete with Google play. They paid off phone manufacturers like Motorola to not preinstall third party app stores and software companies like Riot Games to not produce third party app stores.

OP is saying they could also have avoided this outcome by not allowing competition at all. That's the route that Apple took and Apple won their case against Epic. Google's plan was to maintain a de facto monopoly on app stores while technically allowing competition. Apple's was to just come out and say that they were the only authorized app store and therefore they can't be anti-competitive because there exists no ma…

I think it’s tough to guess what would have happened if Google had been more proactive about locking down some parts of android earlier. Though I will speculate that android would have seen much less widespread adoption if they had been more restrictive

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#336

Post by hedora »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #280
TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the result of this case is "you can have a monopoly as long as your device and ecosystem are 100% locked down", that's terrible! Monopolies aren’t illegal. Only the abuse of a monopoly position to advance your interest in other markets is illegal. E.g. It’s not illegal to be the only seller of gasoline in the country. It is illegal though to bundle laundry powder with gasoline sales to corner the laundry powder…

100% correct. I was involved in the Netscape Microsoft anti trust case and this is specifically the finding that led to their loss (way too late for us)

The jury found that Google has a monopoly on the Android platform. That would extend to Apple and iOS, but I’ll be shocked if that finding is turned into a legal precedent that is upheld on appeal.

For one thing, the jury is probably more technically savvy than the judges that will ultimately decide this case.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#337

Post by CharlesW »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #130
dantheman wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mafia shakes down people who don't interact with them, apple does not.

How do I develop a mobile app which a majority of people in the US will be able to use without interacting with Apple?

You create a web app or website.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#338

Post by toss1 »

LordKeren wrote: post #2

It will be extremely interesting to see how this shapes android going forward. Google didn’t just lose some point— they lost every point > The jury unanimously answered yes to every question put before them — that Google has monopoly power in the Android app distribution markets and in-app billing services markets, that Google did anticompetitive things in those markets, and that Epic was injured by that behavior. Th…

>>"Android and Google Play provide more choice and openness than any other major mobile platform." —— Wilson White, VP, Government Affairs & Public Policy

That's the most he can say? Pretty damn low bar to beat Apple's walled garden at 'openness'. Sheesh

With losing on EVERY point, there may not be a lot of room to appeal, as appeals rarely overturn findings of fact. But it will create delay.

Maybe we'll ultimately get some relief.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#339

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

kyruzic wrote: post #64
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - but give the same case to 10 different juries, and you'll get different decisions. Probably will get at least one outlier with different 10 judges, too.

There's two possible decisions the jury could make, and the jury is composed of a group of people who are chosen by both sides to prevent it from being a biased decision. Obviously not perfect but a lot better than you describe.

> and the jury is composed of a group of people who are chosen by both sides to prevent it from being a biased decision.

No, it's not.

It's chosen at random, and they have a chance to rule out people they think would be biased - and you can't just toss anyone for any reason.

It's not like Google can toss anyone they see playing a game or using an iPhone or something.

And it's definitely not like Google gets to pick 6 Google groupies and Epic picks 6 Epic groupies to be on the jury.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#340

Post by MBCook »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #302
LordKeren wrote: post #2

It will be extremely interesting to see how this shapes android going forward. Google didn’t just lose some point— they lost every point > The jury unanimously answered yes to every question put before them — that Google has monopoly power in the Android app distribution markets and in-app billing services markets, that Google did anticompetitive things in those markets, and that Epic was injured by that behavior. Th…

How is this not all true for Apple and its app store?

I think Madeofpalk’s comment explains the (possible) issue very well.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38608075

Apple has always been “here’s the rules, follow or go away”. Google was “we’re open!” except they kept undermining that.

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