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A coder considers the waning days of the craft

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Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#331

Post by chalcolithic »

corethree wrote: post #288
cglan wrote: post #6

Maybe I’m in the minority. I’m definitely extremely impressed with GPT4, but coding to me was never really the point of software development. While GPT4 is incredible, it fails OFTEN. And it fails in ways that aren’t very clear. And it fails harder when there’s clearly not enough training resources on the subject matter. But even hypothetically if it was 20x better, wouldn’t that be a good thing? There’s so much of t…

>Maybe I’m in the minority. I’m definitely extremely impressed with GPT4, but coding to me was never really the point of software development. You're not the minority. You're the majority. The majority can't look reality in the face and see the end. They lie to themselves. >While GPT4 is incredible, it fails OFTEN. And it fails in ways that aren’t very clear. And it fails harder when there’s clearly not enough traini…

I'm used to HN being sensible, and seeing your comment being downvoted makes me wonder what's happening? What's the reason for that optimism?

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#332

Post by corethree »

chalcolithic wrote: post #331
corethree wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe I’m in the minority. I’m definitely extremely impressed with GPT4, but coding to me was never really the point of software development. You're not the minority. You're the majority. The majority can't look reality in the face and see the end. They lie to themselves. >While GPT4 is incredible, it fails OFTEN. And it fails in ways that aren’t very clear. And it fails harder when there’s clearly not enough traini…

I'm used to HN being sensible, and seeing your comment being downvoted makes me wonder what's happening? What's the reason for that optimism?

Human nature.

https://radiolab.org/podcast/91618-lying-to-ourselves

I know this is a rando podcast and you most likely won't listen to it. But it's totally worth it, just 10 minutes. It's about the science of how and why we lie to ourselves.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#333

Post by bruce511 »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #246
bruce511 wrote: post #222

Obviously we can discuss the merits of GPT4, but actually my first issue is with his root question; >> I would make sure that my kids could program computers. It is among the newer arts but also among the most essential I've got kids. 1 can program. 1 tried it, and didn't like it. 1 just rolled her eyes at me. Turns out, for most people, programming is not like reading or writing at all. Got a question? Ask Google (o…

Would you say the same about math or reading?

Reading is a foundational skill. (Its necessary as a precursor to pretty much everything.) Writing (as in can construct words) pretty much goes with reading. Writing (as in quality, coherent, communication) is clearly less ubiquitous.

Math is something that everyone who can do math, thinks is essential. Unlike reading though there's a continum of skills from iteracy, to arithmetic, to calculus and so on. Very few people know the square root of -1 or use it once a year.

Of course you meant "math" as in basic arithmetic. And sure life is easier with that than without it. But lots of kids go through life with very rudimentary math skills. They function just fine.

Does good reading Writing and math skills open doors? Sure it does. Does knowledge of Word or Excel or Windows or Quickbooks open doors? Sure. Does knowing how to cook a meal, feed others, open doors? Sure. There are a million ways to add value to society. Coding is immensely valuable to those who can do it well. But it's not foundational like reading or writing.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#334

Post by danielmarkbruce »

bruce511 wrote: post #333
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say the same about math or reading?

Reading is a foundational skill. (Its necessary as a precursor to pretty much everything.) Writing (as in can construct words) pretty much goes with reading. Writing (as in quality, coherent, communication) is clearly less ubiquitous. Math is something that everyone who can do math, thinks is essential. Unlike reading though there's a continum of skills from iteracy, to arithmetic, to calculus and so on. Very few peo…

Yeah, I'm saying - it could be now, or it could be soon. Math and reading weren't always foundational, it's a pretty recent thing.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#335

Post by pjmlp »

cglan wrote: post #6

Maybe I’m in the minority. I’m definitely extremely impressed with GPT4, but coding to me was never really the point of software development. While GPT4 is incredible, it fails OFTEN. And it fails in ways that aren’t very clear. And it fails harder when there’s clearly not enough training resources on the subject matter. But even hypothetically if it was 20x better, wouldn’t that be a good thing? There’s so much of t…

I am not seeing people that were put out of job due to factory robots enjoying their work as hobby.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#337

Post by pjmlp »

nextos wrote: post #280
agotterer wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spreadsheets didn’t replace accountants, however, it made them more efficient. I don’t personally believe AI will replace software engineers anytime soon, but it’s already making us more efficient. Just as Excel experience is required to crunch numbers, I suspect AI experience will be required to write code. I use chat-gpt every day for programming and there are times where it’s spot on and more times where it’s blat…

AI might help programmers become more rigorous by lowering the cost of formal methods. Imagine an advanced language where simply writing a function contract, in some kind of Hoare logic or using a dependently-typed signature, yields provably correct code. These kinds of ideas are already worked on, and I believe are the future.

They won't need human help when the time comes.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#338

Post by bruce511 »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #315
csnover wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not the op—they explicitly stated programming is not a skill like reading or writing—but I’ll go down this rhetorical path for fun and say: sure, why not? The utopian aim of technology is all about offloading burdensome work so we can focus more on the things we enjoy. If reading is a burden to someone, why not let them use a TTS? If long division is a burden, why not let them use a pocket calculator? They’ll pro…

I'm not talking about dreams or utopia. Just real modern life - one is way behind opportunity wise if they can't read and can't do math. At some point, that wasn't the case. Many signs point to being able to write instructions for a computer being a core skill for a good life. If your kid rolls their eyes and says "no math/reading for me thanks", you don't just accept it and figure they'll find what they love - you f…

Possible but unlikely. I mean programming in the "code" sense.

We all "program" computers every day (when you turn on a microwave, when you talk to Alexa, when you do a budget in Excel, or write a Doc in Word.)

Coding is not an essential skill. It's clearly a useful skill, but pretty much no-one in my

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#339

Post by oivey »

nextos wrote: post #280
agotterer wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spreadsheets didn’t replace accountants, however, it made them more efficient. I don’t personally believe AI will replace software engineers anytime soon, but it’s already making us more efficient. Just as Excel experience is required to crunch numbers, I suspect AI experience will be required to write code. I use chat-gpt every day for programming and there are times where it’s spot on and more times where it’s blat…

AI might help programmers become more rigorous by lowering the cost of formal methods. Imagine an advanced language where simply writing a function contract, in some kind of Hoare logic or using a dependently-typed signature, yields provably correct code. These kinds of ideas are already worked on, and I believe are the future.

I think this is longer off than you might expect. LLMs work because the “answer” (and the prompt) is fuzzy and inexact. Proving an exact answer is a whole different and significantly more difficult problem, and it’s not clear the LLM approach will scale up to that problem.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#340

Post by summerisle »

Regardless of the quality of work done by an LLM, all of this AI hype has done an absolutely stellar job of clearly dividing the world of software development into two cohorts: those who care (to literally any degree, about process or product), and those who are only involved in it because it makes money. I have never quite liked the latter, because they are often difficult to work with, tend to lack any motivation to develop an in-depth understanding of certain concepts or problems.
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