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Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

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Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#331

Post by danaris »

pipes wrote: post #288
danaris wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "cultural appropriation" has been widely misused and diluted by people who don't really understand it. If I, a white man living in upstate NY, were to don Haudenosaunee ritual gear and record myself performing a traditional dance of theirs, that would be cultural appropriation. It refers to a dominant culture taking the trappings of a colonized or otherwise marginalized culture and using them for entertainme…

Who gets to decide if it's disrespectful? Making fun of religious practices is a god given right!

Making fun of dominant religions, that are in no danger of being wiped out because people find them ridiculous, is fine.

Making fun of marginalized religions, which are already frequently ridiculed because they're different from what the dominant culture does, and which are under threat, either overall or within a given area, is a very different matter.

The problem with cultural appropriation is specifically that it exacerbates marginalization and discrimination against already-marginalized groups.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#332

Post by timkam »

The general concept of luxury beliefs is very interesting, but it feels the author gives it an ideological spin:

1. The author claims that when luxury beliefs 'trickle down' to the working class, they are damaging, which is supposedly not the case for luxury goods. Still, in some not-so-privileged parts of society, signaling status with luxury goods consumes the larger parts of people's budget. Think of someone living in a cheap apartment while driving a (leased) luxury car. This is certainly more damaging than believing the police should be de-funded (which does not have any consequence whatsoever on the micro-level, stupid as it may be).

2. The author claims that advocating a disciplined work ethic while attributing one's own success to luck is inconsistent (and hence bigoted). Still, it _is_ true that success is mostly luck, due to opportunities we cannot control. This does not mean that one should not work hard. It's not that affluent people say: "I am rich because of luck, so you should not even try." The realistic take is that success is mostly due to luck but hard work is one of the few ways to control success _to at least some extent_. Also, in many societies hard work is seen as a virtue in itself, not matter whether it pays off or not. So I would claim that "hard work pays off" is a luxury belief for people who are already super privileged, have strong networks, et cetera. When you are born into the elite, you can afford claiming that marrying into the elite is inferior to working your way up...

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#333

Post by littlestymaar »

test6554 wrote: post #289
automatic6131 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police You are playing the Motte and Bailey[1] tactic perfectly. You say that defunding means only "demilitarizing", which many people would probably agree with. But when put into practise, it's never that. I mean, you don't need to delve very far into academia or lefty twitter to find extremist people saying exactly th…

"I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police" I'd like to emphasize the distinction between your definitions of these words and the actual definitions of these words... abolish - formally put an end to defund - prevent (a group or organization) from continuing to receive funds demilitarize - remove all military forces from (an area)

> demilitarize - remove all military forces from (an area)

Militarization of police refers to this trend where police has started to buy hardware that was previously of military use only[1], so it's not completely absurd to talk about the opposite motion as “demilitarization”.

> defund - prevent (a group or organization) from continuing to receive funds

Or just (significantly) reduce how much funds they get.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#334

Post by philwelch »

littlestymaar wrote: post #325
philwelch wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also find them published in the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

You just found this on Google and because this is behind a paywall you haven't read it, right? Because the argument made here isn't the one you think it is: it's about financing social care in order to be able to make crime disappear (making the police “obsolete”). Now I don't think that's realistic, and no matter how fair your society is going to be there would always be the need for some police in the end (the auth…

> You just found this on Google

No, it went viral three years ago when it came out and I remembered it.

> Because the argument made here isn't the one you think it is: it's about financing social care in order to be able to make crime disappear (making the police “obsolete”).

Yes, and? That’s exactly the argument I think it is.

> Yes the provocative title is an invitation to strawmans but you fell for the trap

A strawman is when you misrepresent a position as being absurd. When the position is already absurd, it is neither possible nor necessary to strawman it.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#335

Post by notaustinpowers »

erkt wrote: post #323
notaustinpowers wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, not sure what discrimination against white people over a historical debt you're referring to. The appropriation statement is specifically about how a significant aspects of certain cultures are repressed in modern American society, but when they are utilized by the majority (in America, white Americans), they're celebrated as fashionable or acceptable. Laying claim to culture is dumb? That's kinda how things ha…

Oh you are right I definitely over projected here and did not recognize the nuance in your argument. I do find in my experience, that most people do not restrict their definition as much as you have.

No worries, it's definitely something that can be very nuanced and it definitely has different meanings and interpretations depending on who you're asking. It's one of those societal things where no two people will say the same thing or have the same relationship with it. This is just the best way I've been able to explain it in a way that, in a way, brings it down to the meat and potatoes of the concept.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#336

Post by colpabar »

notaustinpowers wrote: post #248
JanSt wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cultural appropriation As a european, I just can't wrap my head around this. How is it racist if I like a food of an other culture so much I cook it? Or I like a hairstyle of different culture so I also want to wear it. Or clothes. Or making music. Or.... I mean, I admire all that stuff so much that I want it to be part of my life. How is this racist?

Some of the comments I see kinda get to the point, but not all the way. I've grown up in a fairly liberal part of the southern US, with a high African American population so these are the kind of conversations I encounter fairly often. Cultural appropriation is widely understood to be when someone in a position of power (most commonly a white person) utilizes something that is heavily related or socially seen as "par…

> don't act like you're the best rapper ever if you grew up on a farm in Kansas

Isn't part of being a rapper acting like you're the best rapper ever?

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#337

Post by catlover76 »

lom888 wrote: post #252
steveBK123 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The response proves his point too in a way, and something I've observed in my NYC left rich cohort. Deflecting all criticism by knee jerk reaction of calling the questioner a racist. Disagreement over the magnitude of a problem, its relation to other problems, or the terms used for a problem makes you racist and therefore bad. Now we don't need to consider your opinion and can move on.

Exactly, the deflections of 'racism' and 'sexism' are thought-terminating cliches bandied about in an act of pure class war. No need to listen to Trumpies talk about immigration and how it effects their community if they're all racists; that makes them the other and we can just pretend they don't exist.

I have genuinely never heard or read a Trump supporter discuss any practical effect of immigration, illegal or otherwise, on their actual communities. It's all very theoretical, based on hyperbolic and often false "news" items, and involves a heavy dose of borderline glee in being emotionally callous and selfish.

At beast, I have seen people misread statistics to support their position, but, again, that's not really "how it effects their community".

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#338

Post by catlover76 »

philwelch wrote: post #254
littlestymaar wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I actually read more conservatives than I do read from people who share my opinions because bad faith annoys me even more when it's done from my side. And there are bunch of conservatives that are even pleasant to read even though I don't have much in common with them. You can have different opinions and still argue in good faith.

David French doesn’t count.

Why not?

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#339

Post by someuser2345 »

danaris wrote: post #304
someuser2345 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so special about food? Why is it cultural appropriation to wear African clothes, but not appropriation to cook African food? Both are important parts of their culture.

Well, for one thing, food is, for the most part, something you're doing purely for yourself, in the privacy of your own home. Clothing is a much more visible identity marker: if you're dressed in clothing from particular African cultures, that's a strong signal that you belong to that culture—so if you do not, in fact, belong to it, that can cause a number of kinds of problems in the right (or wrong) circumstances. F…

So if I brought African food to work with me, and ate it during lunch with my co-workers, that would be cultural appropriation?

> Furthermore, for many cultures, the clothing that most recognizably signals membership is related to some form of cultural or religious ritual, and wearing it outside of that context can be very disrespectful

Fair enough; it would be wrong for me to wear a soldier's uniform if I've never served in the army.

Still, I can't help but feel that complaining about cultural appropriation is just a way to maintain USA's cultural dominance. The message seems to be: It's fine for Americans to spread their culture, but it's wrong for other countries to do the same.

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