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Dianne Feinstein has died

nytimes.com

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Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#331

Post by flagrant_taco »

krapp wrote: post #277
Goronmon wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presidency is a special case as it is a singular role that holds enormous amounts of power. And former presidents still have the ability to transition back into Congress afterwards and affect change at that level.

Should the Presidency be a special case? The President isn't supposed to be "leader of the government," just an administrator of one of three co-equal branches led by the people. The president shouldn't be any more popular or powerful than a Senator or representative in Congress, arguably they should be less so because Congress writes the laws and controls the budget. But the way American politics works, driven by po…

> Remove their power to pardon and issue executive orders

Oh add both of those to the list of things I wish we could remove! Pardon are often used as little more than political capital, and executive orders reek of executive overreach and an abuse of power.

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#332

Post by krapp »

Goronmon wrote: post #316
krapp wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should the Presidency be a special case? The President isn't supposed to be "leader of the government," just an administrator of one of three co-equal branches led by the people. The president shouldn't be any more popular or powerful than a Senator or representative in Congress, arguably they should be less so because Congress writes the laws and controls the budget. But the way American politics works, driven by po…

Should the Presidency be a special case? It is a special case. Unless you are saying we need to abolish the position entirely and just rely on the legislative and judicial branches of the government on their own. But until that happens the presidency is a very specific position that only one person holds. But at the end of the day, Congress as a whole holds more power, so term limits in Congress I would consider much…

>Unless you are saying we need to abolish the position entirely and just rely on the legislative and judicial branches of the government on their own.

I'm not saying that, although I do find the idea appealing. Mostly I'm saying the position of President has been elevated in the ideals of American politics far out of proportion that what it should be, and the position itself has all of these weird Neo-monarchical backdoors to give the Presidency some degree of carte blanche power over the other branches, just because the founding fathers didn't trust the other branches to be capable of doing their jobs.

American Presidential elections have become national events to rival the Superbowl, but few Americans care nearly as much about judges, or Senators or Congress, much less local government. By default, most will write off the entirety of government as a fully corrupt, perfectly incompetent sewer, not worth engaging with, believing in or thinking about beyond spite. Only the President is seen to have true agency, can be justified as representing the people, and has the power to enable actual change, almost through sheer force of will alone. At least if they're from your party.

I just think the balance is entirely out of whack but I'm not certain whether that's a symptom of merely politics or a flaw in the system itself.

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#333

Post by Goronmon »

flagrant_taco wrote: post #330
Goronmon wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main concern without term limits is when an elected official moves from being popular and effective at their job to being effective at getting reelected. How does forcing new candidates every number of years ensure that elected officials will be "popular and effective at their job"?

It doesn't. You aren't the only one here that raised similar question, I should have clarified that in my original post. I don't actually like governments creating regulations and drawing lines in the sand. As many have raised with term limits, it isn't a perfect answer and at best bandaids the real problem rather than fixing it. I'd argue that's the case with any regulation emposed on large populations, there are ju…

Term limits would also remove anyone with any potential to collect enough power to change the system.

And there is nothing that prevents the replacements from abusing the power and control afforded to them in similar or worse ways. They'll be kicked out regardless of what they do, so why care about the long term?

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#334

Post by jfengel »

bombcar wrote: post #262
jfengel wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All other things being equal it is in their best interest to re-elect the incumbent. Seniority and connections figure into what posts you get and what influence you have. McConnell's and Feinstein's constituents have an outsized influence on the proceedings. Why would Kentuckians cede control of the Senate in favor of a politician, no matter how skilled, who had zero seniority? I'm not especially in favor of short te…

Once you realize people vote for parties not persons it all makes sense. Heck, California has gone so far as to have all their senate elections be between two members of the same party.

And voting for the party is sensible. Most important votes happen along party lines. Including the most important, for Speaker and Majority Leader, who set the agenda.

Most other votes will be largely sublimated to the party priorities. The individuals will determine the specific contents of what they're voting on, but in general the person from the other party is going to vote against the things you're most interested in. You may watch your party vote on things that aren't your favorite, but it's unlikely they'll be repugnant to you. That's how they got to be your allies.

If you want to get more involved than that, you show up for the primaries. That's a multi-way contest to find the person who best represents you and your allies. That's where the party priorities get set. People who vote only in the general election are missing out on the real work of politics.

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#335

Post by SamPatt »

pierat wrote: post #313
SamPatt wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to believe this - and even advocate for change - then I watched my children become teenagers. There is truth to the idea that, whether due to life experience or brain development, teenagers struggle with proper decision-making. I don't like the arbitrary nature of age cutoffs, but I would no longer support the idea of giving more political power to anyone under 18.

Then why is anyone under 18 charged in criminal court as adults? If you get ages can be seen to have the same legal cognitive patters as an adult, why shouldn't they also have the same rights as an adult?

Part of the criminal justice system is removing dangerous people from society. Sometimes you can make this determination before their 18th birthday. In general I agree with you though.

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#336

Post by jfengel »

edgyquant wrote: post #260
jfengel wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They shouldn't, though Congress has a massive skew towards them. The median senator is on Social Security. The median House member is just shy of being able to make tax-free withdrawals from their 401(k)s. The minimum ages necessarily put an upward skew on it, but very few are anywhere near the minimum. There is little need to ensure representation for the elderly. And meantime, anybody of working age is badly under-…

Very few young people have the privilege to afford campaigning. It makes sense most people able to do so are old enough to have the savings, skills or passive income that allows them the freedom to hit the campaign trail.

Which is yet more reason to give us something to put a thumb on the younger side of the scale.

An age limit would be a crude form of that. So would a term limit.

We could alter the seniority system that gives much more weight to people who have been there the longest. But that's a rule Congress passes for itself, and it's hard to imagine many incumbents giving up on a privilege they've been waiting for.

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#337

Post by coldpie »

steviedotboston wrote: post #322
coldpie wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To avoid the whole "walking dead" thing that keeps happening to elderly politicians. I think it is self-evidently bad when the people running the country cannot remember what happened yesterday.

Apparently you are in the minority. Her constituents had no problem voting for her in the last election despite her advanced age. They either don't care or value experience over other concerns.

Yeah. Both "she's too old to run" and "she's the best candidate under our current system" can be true at the same time. Elsewhere in this thread, I proposed changing the system to have an upper age limit (65) on running for office, which nicely solves the problem, as someone else would have had to step up before her brain turned into pea soup.

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#338

Post by pandemicsoul »

noobermin wrote: post #306

There is a very likely possibility that Feinstein was senile, with reports she couldn't remember which votes she was taking and what she was doing, and thus she was goaded (or coerced) into maintaining her position by her aides who loved their positions, pay, and their power. There has been skepticism in some of the media but most of the mainstream media pundit class (nytimes op-ed pages and the like) won't broach su…

While I don't disagree that her staff was making decisions for her, most of the people in Congressional positions are making far less than $100k, and their pay has gone down in recent years, especially in context of inflation. Their pay is all available online: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44324 So I doubt that's a driving factor for any of them.

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#339

Post by therealdrag0 »

jmondi wrote: post #242
kemayo wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's mostly ego. You're a powerful and successful person, the kind of type-A personality who can get all the way to the top of a fairly exclusive profession, and you wind up thinking you're irreplaceable. "I could retire... but I don't trust that the person who replaces me will be as good as I am." They're not even entirely wrong in the short term -- the Democrats in particular seem to have been doing a reall…

Also dollars. Don’t forget about the dollars.

What dollars?

Re: Dianne Feinstein has died

#340

Post by SamPatt »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #304
SamPatt wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to believe this - and even advocate for change - then I watched my children become teenagers. There is truth to the idea that, whether due to life experience or brain development, teenagers struggle with proper decision-making. I don't like the arbitrary nature of age cutoffs, but I would no longer support the idea of giving more political power to anyone under 18.

> There is truth to the idea that, whether due to life experience or brain development, teenagers struggle with proper decision-making. I don't like the arbitrary nature of age cutoffs, but I would no longer support the idea of giving more political power to anyone under 18. while that's just an anecdote, even if it were the norm, it is also the norm for old people of a sufficient age if it makes you feel better, we…

There is much less variance on cognitive ability on the younger end of our lives than the higher end. Arbitrary age limits in youth are unfair, but less unfair than the same on the upper end of life.

I had a friend who remained sharp until her mid 90s. I have family members who shouldn't be voting in their early 70s. That range is massive, whereas we can mostly agree that nearly all 14 year olds aren't capable, but most 20 year olds are - unfair but not as vast a range.

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