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At this company, we are family

pboyd.io

331–340 of 343 posts

Re: At this company, we are family

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they actually pay Netflix level? Either with huge cash salaries or very very large equity packages?

I don't understand why people think that this philosophy only makes sense if you have gigantic compensation packages. What's so off-putting about: "Do well and you stick around, do poorly and you go away"?

For a lot of people, psychological safety is paramount over even money, especially in the United States where your employment is tightly tied to healthcare, insurance, etc.

Secondly, more often than not, doing "well" or doing "poorly" can be highly subjective and politically motivated. Also, underneath it all we're human. A great performer for years may fall off the wagon for a few quarters due to various life circumstances like death of a loved one, divorce, health, etc. Is the solution to this is to just throw them to the curb the minute they aren't performing to their previous level? If so, then I expect to be paid until the Benjamin's are pouring out of my eyeballs. You get what you pay for.

Re: At this company, we are family

#332
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the best part! They don't have to fire you with a reason, at-will employment means they can just fire you and you're going to have to prove in court it could only have been because you were talking about your salary. Good luck! You just show up to the office, your fob doesn't work, and security walks out to inform you that you don't work here anymore and to expect an email from HR. (Will a good company do this…

"Companies are 100% allowed to" break the National Labor Relations Act because you have moved the goalposts to having to win in court? I don't believe you were previously aware of the NLRA or have any legal insight of value.

You seem to not understand how this plays out in the real world, rather than some idealised "merely by existing, laws prevent companies from breaking the law".

- Your company is most certainly not allowed to break the NLRA. No company is.

- But your company can terminate your employment without cause whenever they like, as long as it's not over something that breaks the law, and as long as they pay the associated full severance.

- You talk about your salary. And given the vast majority of jobs aren't "my employer's so great, I get paid so well" but "there is so much inequality, let's talk about salaries so we can see how deep the rot goes", it's not going to be in a positive light.

- A short while later (definitely not immediately, your company's not a nice company, and it's going to take some time to make sure it has anything on you that they can legally fire you over that doesn't violate the NLBA) your company fires you, without reason, but with full severance.

- You challenge them to provide a reason

- Their lawyers point out they are under no obligation to provide you with a reason because they are complying with "termination without cause" legislation, and that if you think your dismissal was in violation of the law, you take it to court.

Now you have a problem, because now you're going to have to take them to court and prove that they only reason they could have fired you is because you talked about your salary. Can you afford that court case or is it cheaper to take the severance? We're not talking about a happy happy justice "laws work" world, we're talking about the real world, and specifically the real, nasty, world of shit paying US companies, where you aren't a valuable employee but are a disposable asset to be replaced by a cheaper alternative the moment you give them reason to do so, whether that reason is legal or not, because they know you can't afford the challenge, and they know they just need any reason for you to make the case that it was more likely because you talked about salaries than anything else.

Re: At this company, we are family

#333
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should have put in the two weeks at least. Not because the company deserves it, but because the world is smaller that you think. A lot of companies won't even take you up on the notice, but it's best to give it, and give the two weeks if they do take you up on it.

> They should have put in the two weeks at least. And work through two additional weeks without the strength to even brush their teeth? Doesn't seem realistic to me.

They should have never let themselves get to that place to begin with, but it's not the company's fault, so they shouldn't punish the company. They should own their mistake and push through. Or don't, and realize that it may come back to bite them. And if it does, they should realize that they are solely to blame.

And yes, I've been there. Burnt out, depressed, you name it. It's always possible to muster up the energy to do the right thing.

Re: At this company, we are family

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income tax in the UK is 45% only on the portion over £125,140 (~ $160,000) a year: https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates

Principal software engineer positions and above frequently reach $1M per year.

They do not.

Re: At this company, we are family

#335
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Danger pay is a thing for a reason. Contracting pay vs salaried pay is a thing for a reason. Or mathematically, the long term expected return from a volatile employment situation should be equal to the long term expected return from a stable employment situation.

I actually think it should be considerably higher

Much like stocks average returns are higher than govt bonds.

Risk should be compensated by higher expected return, otherwise it's not worth it

Re: At this company, we are family

#336
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should have put in the two weeks at least. And work through two additional weeks without the strength to even brush their teeth? Doesn't seem realistic to me.

They should have never let themselves get to that place to begin with, but it's not the company's fault, so they shouldn't punish the company. They should own their mistake and push through. Or don't, and realize that it may come back to bite them. And if it does, they should realize that they are solely to blame. And yes, I've been there. Burnt out, depressed, you name it. It's always possible to muster up the energ…

Wait, "punish the company"? Say what? The company is not a person, and they would get rid of you without any notice should the need arise.

Your comment reads like a form of victim-blaming, "they should have never gotten into a situation that left them severely depressed".

What!?!?

Re: At this company, we are family

#337
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should have put in the two weeks at least. And work through two additional weeks without the strength to even brush their teeth? Doesn't seem realistic to me.

They should have never let themselves get to that place to begin with, but it's not the company's fault, so they shouldn't punish the company. They should own their mistake and push through. Or don't, and realize that it may come back to bite them. And if it does, they should realize that they are solely to blame. And yes, I've been there. Burnt out, depressed, you name it. It's always possible to muster up the energ…

Corporate shill. He doesn't owe the company anything more than they are contractually obligated.

Re: At this company, we are family

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a large cultural component here. I've never worked at a place where any significant "team building" took place outside of work hours, but I know many devs (mostly outside the US) who told me that it does.

I've always had these events outside work hours. We get paid to work. After work, the company is buying us drinks but not paying us to drink them. Where's the problem?

Well I mean earlier in the thread they're describing issues on performance reviews due to not attending these, so I'd say that's a big problem.

I mean, I have a feeling there may have been other things at work there, but I guess I feel like you can team build without having to do it outside of work hours. If you are not being paid, I don't really see how that's legal to be required to do anything. It seems to me that if one could prove that, it could warrant some legal action as well.

Re: At this company, we are family

#340
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he was so depressed even brushing his teeth in the morning was an insurmountable task -- that is, clinically depressed -- I think your "learn to force yourself to work" suggestion is seriously misguided. Like someone else mentioned, if he had been hit by a car you wouldn't be suggesting he force himself to do anything. Clinical depression is your brain being hit by a car. If he had been hit by a car, who cares abo…

> I think your "learn to force yourself to work" suggestion is seriously misguided. I think it's misguided to think that there aren't many people force themselves to work in that and worse conditions. Why? They need the money. It's seriously misguided, to think you can have any successful career without being able to force yourself to work. Quitting work everytime there is a hicup will not generally lead to a success…

> I think it's misguided to think that there aren't many people force themselves to work in that and worse conditions. Why? They need the money.

This may be unintentional, or I may be misreading you, but this seems to represent a serious misunderstanding of clinical depression.

I did not observe a prior post claiming that there aren't many people who force themselves work, whether for money or any other perceived gain.

Lack of perceived gain is a typical part of clinical depression. A more likely motivator is aversion to perceived worsening; even this can fail to motivate because of tendency to evaluate the likelihood of success of an action as minimal or non-existant. With clinical depression, a frequent observation is that having completed something successfully, or being rewarded for a thing (even as simple as being given or biting into a food yow enjoy) may produce no improvement of mood.

> It's seriously misguided, to think you can have any successful career without being able to force yourself to work. Quitting work everytime there is a hicup will not generally lead to a successful career. Not being able to work at all because the sun is out, your kid is long term sick, your wife had an affair, etc will generally not lead to having a successful career. There are many scenarios on a daily basis where people force themselves to work.

Yes, clinical depression does tend to cause serious misguidance. The likelihood of a successful career, regardless of efforts may seem maximal. The condition does not seem occur in response to a hiccup of circumstance. It tends to result from prolonged exposure to a series of negative events, producing a situation in which the expectation of those events ending, or of those events being replaced by positive ones, does not exist.

Based on what you've written so far, I tentatively hypothesize that you have had a fortunate life[1]. This is generally good, though tends to lead people to conclude that depressed people just need to try more, or are just in a temporary phase, or just need decide to cheer up, do something useful, knuckle through it…

Getting out of clinical depression usually requires external changes. Some people are lucky enough to experience periods of partial remission sufficient to perceive the benefit of seeking help or changing their circumstances, which can lead to full remission.

[1] While acknowledging that getting through some manner of adversity does not automatic'ly require that one has had depression during that period.

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