I would hate to ask the author this, as it seems cruel, but is the FDA denying him access? As he points out, Moderna has two drug trials going. The FDA "right to try" page[0] clearly spells out that Moderna could give him unproven medicine currently in a clinical trial under the right to try laws. So Moderna could let him into one of the two studies, or give him the medicine under the right to try laws if it rejects…
I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
331–340 of 486 posts
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
Current standard of care includes experimental therapy. What you are describing is once again how novel cancer treatments are being implemented today. Furthermore, Step 1 of the NCCN treatment guidelines for these kinds of cancers (i.e. advanced and/or poor responders to conventional chemo) is always that the patient is enrolled in a clinical trial. In this authors case he does not meet inclusion criteria for the the…
That's fair, I'll admit I didn't check the inclusion criteria in the case of OP. I'll take your point, and I appreciate the time you took to write a good response, though I've read about enough examples other than the current article that I feel this may be rejecting a wider pattern on the details of the current submission (but maybe I'm wrong, and they all happened to be incorrect for similar reasons). But I'd like…
> But I'd like to hear your thoughts on the broader argument of being more aggressive with trials in general. What sticks with me each time this argument comes up, regardless of the particular situation, is this idea that despite some mechanisms for accelerated approvals, we are still far slower than we could be, if we take into account the number of people saved by bringing therapies sooner.
Everything in medicine is trade-off. On the extremes we can practice with no regulation and have immediate access to treatments without evidence accepting that many patients will be harmed as many new treatments are inferior or require phase IIIs on the other end and minimize harms but accept that delayed care will itself cause harm.
Current practice is somewhere in the middle, depending on various factors like efficacy, risks/harms, and alternatives many treatments enter practice after phase I/II or used off-label for close indications.
I like where we're currently at for oncology and don't think we need to change much in the process. The bigger hurdle is funneling those R&D $ into high yield research and perhaps making the cost of trials easier (e.g. research alliances, IT infrastructure to simplify multi-center studies and patient recruitment, ?active government involvement).
There's always fine tuning of that balance that can be done and some cases will prove things wrong on either side of the argument but generally speaking I think we're close to where we need to be. Definitely better than when we didn't have the current approval process.
> It's the counterfactual that makes the argument, the people who do not receive treatment due to delay seems to vastly outnumber the people harmed by experimental treatments.
I don't think this is true and I have not seen evidence to support this claim. There is ample evidence of failed treatment options or treatment causing more harm than good. An example I'm well-versed in is HIPEC for advanced ovarian/peritoneal cancers (we've been doing this for years and it turns out it doesn't do much other than excessive morbidity) or Y-90 for HCC/colorectal metastases to the liver (first trials negative and we recently found out "oops we've been underdosing this and measuring non-target dosing to the lungs incorrectly") both of which are for palliative patients with no good alternatives.
Going back to osimertinib as the example, the main criticism of earlier TKIs (same class of drug, and even osimertinib for that matter) was that the promise of limited data (progression free survival rather than overall) led some patients to get TKI therapy rather than platinum based chemo which was standard of care and has proven OS benefit. Except when the OS data came out it was an "oops, OS didn't pan out like PFS" and people were harmed.
That these happen in the current system strongly suggest patients have access to experimental therapies and that we're not being overly stringent, or this data wouldn't exist.
I would also say that a large proportion of the patients I've interacted with that have disseminated disease are on some trial for experimental therapy with the caveat that I've only worked at tertiary care cancer centers. It's really not that hard to get enrolled if you meet criteria. I believe the stories we read of access challenges are largely a vocal minority with challenging circumstances or a misunderstanding of treatment options.
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#333Another area where the US has lagged which would prevent a lot of these cancers from ever developing in the first place is HPV vaccination. Last I heard it was only females who were being routinely vaccinated, and relatively recently at that. We should really be prioritizing eradication of HPV.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squamous_cell_carcinoma#By_bod...
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
A simple way to stem most snake oil is to put all payments for snake oil treatments into escrow till the treatment is approved. Then the snake oil manufacturer can peddle their unapproved treatment to as many people as they like, but they are losing money on every dose unless the treatment turns out to be safe and effective. Obviously you need a big team of scientists on the approval panel to make sure no snake oil s…
> A simple way to stem most snake oil is to put all payments for snake oil treatments into escrow till the treatment is approved. Even simpler is to prohibit payments for these experimental treatments, but let people who whould die anyway participate in them as long as it is free for them. In return the drug companies could use the outcomes as data points towards their aproval applications. Why would a drug manufactu…
Experimental treatments being available to people with no options (there must be no applicable option with a proven probability of success or this becomes very questionable) could save drug companies millions-billions in the off chance that it proves to be incompatible with human testing or fails to produce the expected effects in humans.
I would take this up a notch or two for patients in a short-range situation that is certainly fatal, opening the door for them to try treatments that have just barely crossed en-vidrio and seem to have acceptable toxicity in mouse models. This would essentially be donating one’s body to science but in a much more useful form, with the side benefit of a slim chance of life extension.
This could benefit humanity by significantly reducing time to market for some drugs and cutting costs on eventual dead-ends.
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#335There was a drug called Rapamycin discussed in this Radiolab episode https://radiolab.org/podcast/dirty-drug-and-ice-cream-tub The drug supposedly helped delay the doctor's cancer and extend his lifespan until he stopped taking it, then it came back "with a vengeance" and he passed away. He wanted to stop taking it to verify whether it was actually working or not. I wonder if it might help this person? He might have…
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#336What I don't understand is why the FDA doesn't automatically rubber stamp approvals on medicine approved in Canada and the European Union. We all know their medicine is good - so why can't I get it?!
Money and politics. Why can someone drive for 6 months in a country with a foreign driver's license but can't get a local license? I've had this misdiagnosed medical condition for 25 years by multiple doctors. Nothing serious but extremely annoying. There are approved drugs in Europe for decades which are much better than the ones approved in North America. One day the company making the drug that's approved in North…
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#337https://www.fda.gov/patients/learn-about-drug-and-device-app...
Biden's Moonshot program is trying to drive money to support new innovations:
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#338My Dad was dying of IPF and I was always on the hunt for anything that may help. Of course there are countless quack "cures" but I came across a study that said metformin may help. Metformin is what people with type 2 diabetes use to help to control blood lipids among other things. My Mom actually takes metformin since she has type 2 diabetes. My Dad's doctor wouldn't even discuss it and dismissed it outright. Dad di…
Anecdotal. When "quack" * science helped. After COVID (both the disease and the vaxx), I got heart arrhythmia, I had around 5000 irregular heart beats a day (PVCs and PACs mainly), and those all happen in a matter of hours, so when they happen, it's pretty debilitating. After a while, I invested in a Bluetooth stethoscope and ECG watches, the doctors finally believed I have something. However, the cardiologist's advi…
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#339There should be a universal law in human rights stating anyone can take anything into their own bodies and governments can never, ever prevent them. Governments/regulators deciding what you can put into your body is beyond ridiculous: applies to all substances and drugs. Inform about the potential risks and effects: sure. Prevent: never.
It doesn't matter if insurance companies aren't required to pay for it. People will max out credit cards, borrow from friends, and mortgage their house. All for something that could sit anywhere on the continuum of: does nothing to kills you immediately. Probably with a side of "did this rather than something that would have actually worked".
Re: I am dying of squamous cell carcinoma, and potential treatments are out of reach
#340There should be a universal law in human rights stating anyone can take anything into their own bodies and governments can never, ever prevent them. Governments/regulators deciding what you can put into your body is beyond ridiculous: applies to all substances and drugs. Inform about the potential risks and effects: sure. Prevent: never.
Without socializing of medical costs I completely agree. But if you are asking other people to pay for a part of the consequences of your decisions then you should accept that those other people can constrain the decisions you can make.
And if you protect the drug companies and doctors against those lawsuits, then you open the door to them exploiting desperate people.