Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns • Hacker News Board

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#331

Post by wonderwonder » Tue, May 23, 2023, 7:57 PM UTC

grvdrm wrote: post #324

wonderwonder wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your viewpoint but strongly disagree. Children today suffer vastly increasing rates of depression and suicide. I link most of it to social media. My kids talk to their friends just as kids have done for generations. If social media is playing any sort of a critical role in a kids life it's because the parents are not doing it. YouTube is absolutely social media no different than Instagram or TikTok. Even…

Your comment is fascinating. Putting aside whether I agree or disagree, did you ever consider sitting down with your kids to teach/coach/guide them through what social media is, the content on it, what's valuable or not? And if you decided not to, what criteria did you use to make the decision? Did you waver in that decision, or do you take time to reevaluate it on a regular basis? Or is it instead that you categoric…

I used to be on social media a lot. Everything I saw made me believe it is rotten to the core, especially for young kids just figuring out who they are. I'm hard pressed to think of a single positive thing a child could gain from being on social media. Social media is set up for predation at it's core, everyone is playing the likes and followers game. No one likes your post or people attack you and now it's a vector for depression. It's an echo chamber. It amplifies the worst of us. It's full of pornography. Especially if you are a young teenage boy looking for it. So overall for me it's a net negative. I can talk to them about it when they are older, and in highschool

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#332

Post by throwbadubadu » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:01 PM UTC

yumraj wrote: post #187

iamacyborg wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being this careful with young children's usage of a device but giving teenagers zero privacy (to the extent of going through their personal messages) seems wild to me.

> but giving teenagers zero privacy (to the extent of going through their personal messages) seems wild to me. Why? Teenagers are kids too, or have we forgotten that? They are actually worse than kids in some respect, still immature but with changing body and new hormones. It may seem weird to them at this time, but hopefully they’ll appreciate when they grow older - or even if not, at least one did what they could.

> It may seem weird to them at this time, but hopefully they’ll appreciate when they grow older

I have been raised differently, and with certain values. It is frustrating but ok to forbid or limit things, and to talk about issues. But to snoop through one's private messages or similar communication, that's completely disgusting and I would have what? Appreciated? No, never forgiven (works both ways btw, the trust). Especially at teenage age.

I guess I shared voluntarily more with my parents and voiced issues than I would have in such circumstances, can just repeat: dis gus ting.

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#333

Post by xpe » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:02 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #50

xpe wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are your specific concerns with the advice given in the social media warning?

> What are your specific concerns with the advice given in this warning? Social media upturns traditional government controlled information transmission. E.g. the US government built its case for the Iraq War partly on fake information run by the NYT (by the currently media-respected journalist Judith Miller). Control of information transmission by attempting to FUD alternative means is a way to consolidate opinions…

> I am claiming (and have receipts for the claims) that public health professionals will provide advice that is damaging or risky in order to protect something else. They will intentionally mislead you so that some imagined total outcome is better. In the past, their attempt to do so resulted in personal harm or death for many (perhaps in the millions) because they're bad at managing the total outcome too.

Ok, I’ll bite. Relative to what alternative, exactly? Is this a testable claim?

## Actionable? Testable?

Or is this a historical comparison of the US public health advice against the best case advice in hindsight?

Can I compare advice from an alternative “private health” source that has my interests at heart?

In other words, going forward, do you have a source or algorithm (e.g. to combine different sources of advice) process that you think is more reliable?

## Your Decisions and Outcome

And you offer yourself as an example of doing opposite. That’s fine, but be intellectually honest that this is ‘at best’ a sample size of 1, and you didn’t really do the ‘total opposite’ of masking and exposure, did you?

Conceptually that is undefined — opposite here could mean so many things. Practically speaking, you didn’t share a tiny enclosed air space with obviously contagious people, did you?

## Subtext: apparent overconfidence

I think what I’m picking at is what appears to be an overconfidence and a lack of testable claims.

It’s fine to be skeptical of public health advice, but you seem to go further. I can’t really tell how far you are willing to go.

## Ensembling (like ML)

In my view, the key is gathering evidence and reasoning over it. Don’t throw out a source of information when you have a fairly good characterization of how it operates. Even flawed sources add signal.

## You Can Help Most of the People Most of the Time

Yes, public health make mistakes. And they aim to prioritize public health, not my health in particular. They should.

For most people, most of the time, following the advice of the CDC is a good ‘default’ starting point. Deviate at your own risk.

## We are the Idiots My Friend and we’ll keep on fighting ‘till the end

Somewhere around half (maybe more) of Americans make glaring errors regarding basic facts and critical thinking around public health. This is why almost all people should follow public health advice, even if changes a little bit every week — and even if the agency got it wrong last week.

Many of these people fall prey to politically motivated reasoning or conspiracy theory quackery.

## Impossible Standards

If people held themselves to the same standard that they are judging the CDC, they would not have a shred of self confidence left. Can’t stick to a diet? Can’t seem to keep your shit together? Yeah. But expect the CDC to predict the dynamics and mechanisms of the coronavirus and its impact on global health and supply chains. It is ludicrous. People by and large seem to be designed to complain about not themselves.

The pandemic was really a level of unprecedented change that few of us have seen since maybe Vietnam, the AIDS outbreak, or WW2.

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#334

Post by wolverine876 » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:02 PM UTC

It should have been obvious from a parenting perspective. How did we become such idiots that we need healthcare professionals to tell us (which we do need)?

Do you want your child exposed to any arbitrary adult or other child, doing or talking about or showing any arbitrary thing, and in an environment that encourages and celebrates unconstrained sociopathic behavior?

It should have been an easy call for any parent long ago, and adult social media needs to be treated like a bar or R or NC-17 rated movie - not a place for children.

Bars that don't keep out children are considered nuisances to the neighborhood and shut down. Did you know that in some (maybe most) places, if someone leaves a bar and trashes the neighbor's car, the bar is liable?

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#335

Post by foobarian » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:04 PM UTC

yamtaddle wrote: post #320

foobarian wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is (IIRC) he sent it over IRC, which as far as these things go is relatively ephemeral :-)

Ha, yeah, reinforces the idea that if you don't have crazy-good opsec you better not post anything online—including in places as relatively-safe as IRC or direct messages—that you don't want in the newspaper, with your name next to it.

I still cringe at the immature garbage we did in college over telnet and unsecured NIS/Ethernet Unix boxes not questioning whether anyone was recording packet traces for posterity. Luckily disk space was super expensive back then. :-)

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#336

Post by throwbadubadu » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:08 PM UTC

Tade0 wrote: post #180

dundercoder wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked in tech for 20+ years and I have 4 young kids. We allow our teenager use of a locked down smartphone, with a clearly explained zero expectation of privacy. We don't allow any social media on the phone itself. YouTube and other sites can be used under supervision for agreed on lengths of time. Once or twice a week my wife or I will go through their text messages with them and ask questions about anything t…

Personally I wouldn't implement such a policy purely because it's against my values. People generally value their privacy. How are children supposed to learn the same if their's is not respected?

Someone also needs to raise the future people who do the nice work at the NSA, FBI and the likes..

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#337

Post by lumb63 » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:10 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #301

somethingreen wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that any of these would normally worry an average young teen is hilarious to me. I grew up during cold war, USSR collapse, multiple wars in the region. At no point was I (or any of my peers to my knowledge) gravely concerned for our future. Because none of us yet had any idea what our normal future is supposed to look like. The only way these mild horrors get into children heads is, again, through social med…

I grew up in approximately the same period and grim possibilities, along with local economic problems to a lesser extent, were certainly a concern for me and my peers. Other risks existed as well, kids in my neighborhood school died of drug overdoses, accidents, and medical problems. Others had to deal with poverty, abusive parents, or a family member behind bars. Back then middle aged people blamed television your a…

> School shootings are such a regular feature of American life […] Media certainly amplifies the awareness of problems

Case in point: in 2022 there were 51 school shootings [1]. Certainly more than I’d like there to be, but in a nation with about 129,000 schools [2], I certainly wouldn’t call them a “regular feature”. If students are in school for 18 years, let’s say, to include pre-K, Kindergarten, and an undergrad degree, and the number of school shootings stayed steady for that whole time, they’d be in school for 918 school shootings, or a 0.7% chance that they go to a school which experiences a school shooting. Not common.

Yet the media reports them heavily, and that causes fear, and that fear is what drives schools to hold safety drills regularly to prepare students for these situations.

[1]: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-shootings-this-year...

[2]: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/education-statistics-facts...

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#338

Post by spacemadness » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:13 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #300

mtalantikite wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd maybe put the doubling of rent every decade up there at the top as the thing that causes the most mental health harm. I'm in my late 30s and remember moving to NYC in 2007, when seeing two bedroom apartments in Brooklyn for $1200/month seemed expensive but doable. Now I hear of young people paying that for a room in a shared apartment, or end up moving back in with their parents. Add to that other costs of existi…

It's simple - Brooklyn just became a trendy place in the meantime. And so, of course it's overpriced. Smart people don't overpay for things - the solution is just to live somewhere else. 99.9% of places are not trendy and thus not overpriced. There are thousands of cities in the US, and maybe 10-20 of them are so popular that everyone wants to live there. Of course the prices in those places are going to be crazy - y…

It’s not simple. If “smart people don’t overpay for things” I’ve got some news for you about inflation. And no, moving somewhere simply because it’s cheaper isn’t a solution that fixes everything for everyone in every situation.

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#339

Post by cmh89 » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:13 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #300

mtalantikite wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd maybe put the doubling of rent every decade up there at the top as the thing that causes the most mental health harm. I'm in my late 30s and remember moving to NYC in 2007, when seeing two bedroom apartments in Brooklyn for $1200/month seemed expensive but doable. Now I hear of young people paying that for a room in a shared apartment, or end up moving back in with their parents. Add to that other costs of existi…

It's simple - Brooklyn just became a trendy place in the meantime. And so, of course it's overpriced. Smart people don't overpay for things - the solution is just to live somewhere else. 99.9% of places are not trendy and thus not overpriced. There are thousands of cities in the US, and maybe 10-20 of them are so popular that everyone wants to live there. Of course the prices in those places are going to be crazy - y…

It depends on what you mean by 'overpriced'. Most people are talking about housing unaffordability which is not limited to trendy places. The house I rented in Kansas City Missouri in 2009 for $900 was bought by the owners in 2007 for $120k. Zillow estimates that same home would rent for $1800 a month and is valued at $269k. KCMO is not trendy or even a desirable place to live.

Re: Social media can be a ‘profound risk’ to youth, surgeon general warns

#340

Post by birdyrooster » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:16 PM UTC

somethingreen wrote: post #275

zackmorris wrote: post #173

D.A.R.E. to Keep Kids Off Social Media Wages stagnated since 1980. Rents doubling every decade. Dead-end service jobs. Unpayable student loans. Social Security payments going to IOUs instead of retirements. Lying politicians and chief corporate officers making bank on the backs of the working poor. 30% credit card interest. Delaying childbirth to make rent until it's too late. GMO and processed foods poisoning giving…

The idea that any of these would normally worry an average young teen is hilarious to me. I grew up during cold war, USSR collapse, multiple wars in the region. At no point was I (or any of my peers to my knowledge) gravely concerned for our future. Because none of us yet had any idea what our normal future is supposed to look like. The only way these mild horrors get into children heads is, again, through social med…

Your comment is a case study on pathological dismissiveness.