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Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

331–340 of 420 posts

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#331
post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation".

The issue is that early ownership of a phone correlating to worse mental health may be a proxy for something else. If you are raising children and trying to make good parenting decisions and someone says "smartphones are the work of the devil and your child will be mentally healthier without them" they need to actually be correct, not guessing to enhance their career or something.

If it's not true, then parents who might have safety reasons for providing a phone who then opt to not provide a phone "because phones are bad for kids" may be harming their kids.

It's a blanket statement without nuance. It doesn't tell me if there are situations where it's okay and, if so, what they are. This usually means a person isn't really that knowledgeable about a topic.

People tend towards confirmation bias. It's a rare individual who says "What would affirmatively disprove my hypothesis? Does that thing exist?"

Without that, it's usually not a solid hypothesis. It's usually one full of holes.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#333
post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". The issue is that early ownership of a phone correlating to worse mental health may be a proxy for something else. If you are raising children and trying to make good parenting decisions and someone says "smartphones are the work of the devil and your child will be…

> safety reasons for providing a phone

Isn’t this a red herring? Do you need to provide a smart phone or just a phone? If it’s a smart phone do you need to enable unfettered access or just the safety related apps you need?

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". The issue is that early ownership of a phone correlating to worse mental health may be a proxy for something else. If you are raising children and trying to make good parenting decisions and someone says "smartphones are the work of the devil and your child will be…

> safety reasons for providing a phone Isn’t this a red herring? Do you need to provide a smart phone or just a phone? If it’s a smart phone do you need to enable unfettered access or just the safety related apps you need?

I would welcome detailed articles about exactly that over this guy harping on his "right" to win this argument with the preponderance of the evidence.

He seems very hung up on stamping his foot and insisting the world admit he's right, damn it, and not actually all that concerned about helping parents raise their children better.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#335

This situation has been well known for years . It isn't news to any of us. So why aren't we learning more about the problem? Why are we just beating the same dead horse instead of investigating further? There is no way you could just convince the majority of children (or their parents) to just stop using mobile computers. Is there a more direct approach that could be taken? Most of the comments here can tell you from…

Your idea that if you give people space and resources they will explore and learn and do creative things is talked about in regards to many issues. I don't totally buy it. Smartphones and computers in general are a pretty strong example of the opposite. Sure OS's are more restrictive than in the past, but anyone who has a laptop and smartphone has access to programming tools and device sensors that would have been sc…

Have you ever tried to create anything with a smartphone? That path has an incredible amount of resistance. More importantly, the arbitrary hurdles cannot be moved.

On a desktop PC, I can install whatever Linux distro I want. That can give me much greater access to a serious development environment than even Windows could dream of. Android feels like a toy in comparison, and iOS is like one of those fake laptops they sell to toddlers.

Even when my Android phone has an unlockable bootloader, it's still unlikely that I will be able to run a desktop-equivalent Linux distro on it. Chances are, I'm left with a less-restrictive flavor of Android. That's the best case scenario, and it's absolutely worse than the average case I grew up with.

It's not entirely about resistance, either. People follow their interests within a reasonable amount of effort. At the end of the day, they balance the two.

What opportunities to mobile computing users have to follow what interests? Social media provides the least resistance by several orders of magnitude.

We can and should change this landscape. We should be minimizing the opportunity cost of creative computing, instead of trying to convince billions of people to throw the entire thing out the window.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#336
post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully each other at a scale unlike any other. People problem. > Smartphones give children the ability to see everyone who is smarter than they are, prettier than they are, and so on. People problem. > Smartphones give children a new avenue for social exclusion. People problem. > Smartphones make every single child afraid that what they are doing is being recorded by someone…

Your comment completely lacks understanding about human behavior. It's like saying that a heroin addict should just learn to ignore the ready opium-filled syringe on his bedside table.

No, humans don't work like this. You gotta throw the whole thing in the garbage or lock it down so much (basically possible with current platforms) to never encounter those addicting uses.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#337
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the form-factor of technology necessarily alters our relationship to it. Compared to a laptop or desktop PC, a smartphone is a constant presence, always in your kid’s pocket or backpack, easily snuck under a desk for a distraction from a boring lecture, easily used by friends or bullies to record you unnoticed. Besides that, parents can learn to restrict their kids’ phones from social media use, but that seems li…

> you could simply give your kid a “dumb phone” for emergency use. I think you got it backwards, the emergency case is just the -excuse- parents use. In reality, it is about social pressure, not emergency use, all the other kids have phones, why can't I? Real phones, with apps and games and shit. FFS most parents will shove up an iDevice to their toddlers so they can play angry birds or whatever instead of caring for…

> In reality, it is about social pressure, not emergency use, all the other kids have phones, why can't I?

Straightforward, caring, non-judgemental talk might work: you shouldn't have it because your brain is at a too early developmental stage and you cannot cope with the addiction. This is how we explained it to our son. A relative had given him an old smartphone in 1st grade (I never appreciated that gift!), but we replaced it with a dumb phone in 2nd grade with zero problems. He was able to choose among a few models himself (picked a Nokia 105 [1]). He was absolutely okay with that.

It has a few silly demo games, but he doesn't play them much. When we go to grandma's for two days, he voluntarily leaves his phone at home, because "nobody will probably call me" (see: he realizes there's not much else he could do with the phone!). During the smartphone-year, in contrast, he had obvious trouble putting the smartphone away, even if he didn't really "do" anything in it; just scrolling around and launching grownups' old apps he couldn't understand. (I wonder if physical buttons cause less addiction than a touchscreen?)

In short, our kid is absolutely fine with the dumb phone. It really does work simply as a "tool", for calls and messages. Recently he even asked for a mechanical wrist watch because he doesn't seem to like carrying the phone in his pocket or backpack.

I'm close to 40 and a long-time hobbyist Linux nerd. I've intentionally never ever owned a smartphone (for some odd reason, reading mails etc on that laughably tiny screen seemed utterly stupid in 2003; even thinking about the endless possibilities (=bloat!) of later smartphones always made me feel overwhelmed, so I never wanted one). So I, too, only have a dumb phone -- and, same experience here: it really does work just as a "tool for making phone calls or sending messages". Nothing else. Living without smartphone apps is actually way easier than most people seem to imagine.

Another thing: I'm thinking that maybe (at least in our kid's public school in a Small East European Country) some kind of "anti tech addiction" meme is also making rounds amongst schoolchildren? If this is true, then maybe dumb phones are even somewhat, err, hip in some circles these days? At least elementary school children do seem to care about their mental well-being -- when you tell them about this with empathy, simple but honest cause-and-effect examples and without condemnation (I think this last bit is key: no judgements where judging is avoidable; show, don't tell!). It is also most interesting to get young children to really think about that they actually do have a brain up there, a brain that is an actual part of them, and that this brain always needs some care.

1: https://res.cloudinary.com/telia-pim/image/upload/v163282637...

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#338
post #337
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could simply give your kid a “dumb phone” for emergency use. I think you got it backwards, the emergency case is just the -excuse- parents use. In reality, it is about social pressure, not emergency use, all the other kids have phones, why can't I? Real phones, with apps and games and shit. FFS most parents will shove up an iDevice to their toddlers so they can play angry birds or whatever instead of caring for…

> In reality, it is about social pressure, not emergency use, all the other kids have phones, why can't I? Straightforward, caring, non-judgemental talk might work: you shouldn't have it because your brain is at a too early developmental stage and you cannot cope with the addiction. This is how we explained it to our son. A relative had given him an old smartphone in 1st grade (I never appreciated that gift!), but we…

There's great that there are some parents like you, but we can't expect the majority of normies to care.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#339
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure. I think if I rewrote your argument with "social media" instead of "smart phone" it would sound just as convincing.

Smart phones give complete access to social media at literally every single waking hour . They are practically one and the same.

[deleted]

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#340
post #146

OP here. Parent of 3, ages 12, 15 and 18 navigating this issue irl. Although I believe good parents aren't super rigid on any issue, I feel pretty strongly on this one. It's the parents responsibility and it's hard since it requires your good example. No phone, age 0 to 10-12, to the Lightphone (absolutely love this product) age 13 to 16-18, to a smart phone. I believe the progression is pushed off as long as possibl…

> Lightphone (absolutely love this product) What made you pick the Lightphone over a cheap dumb phone. Looking at their product page, the only obvious difference that stood out was the e-ink display.

Great question, and perhaps there is something better out there now since the popularity is rising. We researched thoroughly 3 years ago and at that time they had the best mix of features that fit our needs. Many dumb phones still have cameras and access to games which are both a non starter for our kids. Lightphones have no direct access to internet, but have calendaring which syncs to google, music, podcasts, and turn by turn directions. They are also hard to type on which we view as a feature that makes your time texting "count". We believe the e-ink display reduces the "pull" of the screen to our kids eyeballs.

There is also an element of the design and uniqueness of a ligthphone that starts conversations when people see it. Our son actually brags about his lightphone to peers and other adults, it is not an embarrasment which we believe is an intagible benefit.

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