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You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

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Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#331

Post by ResearchCode »

midoridensha wrote: post #327
ResearchCode wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what use a "scrum master" is. That sounds like a small task for the software engineer or their real manager. There is nothing showing that heavy agile actually leads to features being developed earlier. In my experience it's the opposite as you build up heavy tech debt by micro-managing and optimizing for a 2 week return instead of the long term. Waterfall were 1 to 2 year projects with heavy up-front adm…

In my experience on a scrum team, the scrummaster was basically a coach. They helped deal with external issues as the other responder said, so the manager (team leader) didn't waste his time with that and could use his time dealing with team members and doing engineering work too. In my case, the scrummaster had this role for a bunch of parallel teams, not just one, so it was a full-time job for him. The org structur…

If the "scrum master" stopped booking meetings that should have been an e-mail, the engineers would deal with those issues with time to spare. What issues really? I don't even see how a technically weak "scrum master" could deal with any real issue in a software product.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#332

Post by [deleted] »

theshrike79 wrote: post #329
midoridensha wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience on a scrum team, the scrummaster was basically a coach. They helped deal with external issues as the other responder said, so the manager (team leader) didn't waste his time with that and could use his time dealing with team members and doing engineering work too. In my case, the scrummaster had this role for a bunch of parallel teams, not just one, so it was a full-time job for him. The org structur…

Yea, pretty often scrum masters are hired coaches that are let go when the team knows how to self-manage - or like you said - they coach multiple teams at the same time.

[deleted]

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#333

Post by ResearchCode »

theshrike79 wrote: post #329
midoridensha wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience on a scrum team, the scrummaster was basically a coach. They helped deal with external issues as the other responder said, so the manager (team leader) didn't waste his time with that and could use his time dealing with team members and doing engineering work too. In my case, the scrummaster had this role for a bunch of parallel teams, not just one, so it was a full-time job for him. The org structur…

Yea, pretty often scrum masters are hired coaches that are let go when the team knows how to self-manage - or like you said - they coach multiple teams at the same time.

What qualifications does a "scrum master" have that a software engineer does not have when it comes to creating a self-managing team? The "scrum" pamphlet can be read on a lunch break and I don't think the certs even have exams.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#334

Post by emodendroket »

davemp wrote: post #330
emodendroket wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go way back up in this thread the reason given for Scrum being bad is it features estimation, which is useless because it's inaccurate, so telling me that systems other than Scrum feature estimation is not a rebuttal.

This is not really a discussion in good faith. > the reason given for Scrum being bad is it features estimation This seems like a strawman and not at all what I was picking up from further up the thread. --- https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

Can you tell me how I was supposed to interpret “it is impossible to do good estimation” as a criticism of Scrum, then?

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#335

Post by ResearchCode »

emodendroket wrote: post #303
ResearchCode wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research mathematics.

Do you get paid to do research or is there a deliverable at the end?

Yes, you get paid to do research and there are theorems delivered. Just like software projects, some never get delivered and you don't know when if they're not trivial.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#336

Post by ResearchCode »

JohnFen wrote: post #282
rightbyte wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ye padding estimates and report time according to the estimate to make the burn down chart straight was what I learned to do when Scrum was forced on my team for no good reason at all. -"It is impossible to do accurate estimates" -"You will get better at it" I wonder if the Scrum Master knew that in the end "get better" is "starting to cheat". Do anyone else share this experience?

> I wonder if the Scrum Master knew that in the end "get better" is "starting to cheat". I was a trained Scrum Master and I knew this very well.

What's a trained "scrum master"? I thought the certs don't even have exams.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#337

Post by gofreddygo »

josephg wrote: post #53
DanHulton wrote: post #3

Every team I've worked on that has switched from Kanban to Scrum has slowed down and never regained the previous velocity. Further, many of the promised benefits of Scrum (things like better insight and predictability about delivery rates) never materialized. Every team that I've worked on that has switched from Scrum to Kanban saw an immediate improvement in speed that never disappeared. Once, just once, I was lucky…

I think the "problem" is that Scrum orients more to the needs of people outside the team. So, (in theory) you get clearer reporting and more visibility into whats going on. People expect that extra reporting to be free, but its not free. The time taken to do team task estimation, update jira tickets and have retrospectives is time spent not programming. The sad truth is that most management teams would prefer their e…

> most management teams would prefer their employees to be predictable and observable (ie, under control) than be efficient.

we're in this exact phase - sacrificing efficiency, team morale and independence to make the boards look cleaner to "raise the bar" per se.

We're a small efficient team in a massive org. Manager does a great job of not making stupid decisions, values people's time and is clear about the metrics the team gets evaluated on.

somewhere along the way he's, missed the reality that clean user stories and tasks, complete with points down to hours and acceptance criteria can still be completely f$#king wrong compared to the actual work that needs to be done. Not because the people are idiots but because thats how most software work is. You find out when you actually start working on it.

But if you mandate that you need a well cut plan before code gets written, you mostly get well written $hit.

We just embarked on this journey which I can mostly predict the outcome of.

sad, true.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#338

Post by midoridensha »

ResearchCode wrote: post #333
theshrike79 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, pretty often scrum masters are hired coaches that are let go when the team knows how to self-manage - or like you said - they coach multiple teams at the same time.

What qualifications does a "scrum master" have that a software engineer does not have when it comes to creating a self-managing team? The "scrum" pamphlet can be read on a lunch break and I don't think the certs even have exams.

In my experience, there's a couple: 1. The scrum master actually has a personality that facilitates talking to people both inside and outside the team, getting people to participate in meetings, etc. The software engineers do not. 2. The scrum master has time to spend on dealing with external stakeholders, coordinating between teams, etc. The team members have better things to do with their time, like write software.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#339

Post by ResearchCode »

midoridensha wrote: post #338
ResearchCode wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What qualifications does a "scrum master" have that a software engineer does not have when it comes to creating a self-managing team? The "scrum" pamphlet can be read on a lunch break and I don't think the certs even have exams.

In my experience, there's a couple: 1. The scrum master actually has a personality that facilitates talking to people both inside and outside the team, getting people to participate in meetings, etc. The software engineers do not. 2. The scrum master has time to spend on dealing with external stakeholders, coordinating between teams, etc. The team members have better things to do with their time, like write software.

Engineers communicate just fine at FAANG. I don't see why they need an agile helper in non-tech enterprise. Lawyers don't need agile, and doctors don't. There is no reason why engineers would.

The team members are too busy with agile meetings to write software. That's a more common problem.

Maybe giving the tech lead a technical secretary is a better idea if you have a lot of administration to be done.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#340

Post by midoridensha »

ResearchCode wrote: post #339
midoridensha wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, there's a couple: 1. The scrum master actually has a personality that facilitates talking to people both inside and outside the team, getting people to participate in meetings, etc. The software engineers do not. 2. The scrum master has time to spend on dealing with external stakeholders, coordinating between teams, etc. The team members have better things to do with their time, like write software.

Engineers communicate just fine at FAANG. I don't see why they need an agile helper in non-tech enterprise. Lawyers don't need agile, and doctors don't. There is no reason why engineers would. The team members are too busy with agile meetings to write software. That's a more common problem. Maybe giving the tech lead a technical secretary is a better idea if you have a lot of administration to be done.

Obviously you have some kind of axe to grind and haven't worked in a place that uses the scrum process decently. We never spent much time in agile meetings.
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