Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#331

Post by yamtaddle » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:19 PM UTC

yeahwhatever10 wrote: post #226

INTPenis wrote: post #157

As a Swede this makes me happy, partially because Finland shares a lot of their border with Russia and can now feel safe knowing they have the might of 30 nations behind them, but also because we're now surrounded by NATO countries. So no need for us to join, right? Right?! Let's remain neutral and a free haven for political dissidents and potential refugees of the future, right?!!

Is that how NATO is spoken about in Europe, that it is the might of 30 nations and not just the US?

The US is obviously the global Big Dog, but NATO's got three other top-ten-by-expenditure militaries in it, plus two more of the very-small count of global nuclear powers (Britain, France), and three of maybe a half-dozen countries with notable navies that aren't the US (Britain, France, Italy). Expanding to look at the top-20 by expenditure, you pick up another five entries that are NATO members.

The rest of NATO gives you basically another China's worth of military (they're #2 by spending), so it's not nothing, to put it mildly.

The geography controlled by and the economic power of the bloc is also important, for logistical reasons. Having not just open trade and maybe some donations in wartime but outright military support for your supply lines is huge, plus intel sharing and such.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#332

Post by jnsaff2 » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:20 PM UTC

andreygrehov wrote: post #304

happymellon wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so Ukraine didn't join NATO and then they were invaded. That doesn't sound like it's a message worth listening to.

The conflict was almost inevitable. In January, before the war started, Russia made the last attempt to stop the expansion. The U.S. rejected it [1]. Russia made multiple hints saying that if the expansion continues, they'll invade. That's why, imho, Biden was so confident in Feb 19-20 saying the war will begin within a week. Heck, even Ukraine knew everything, but they decided to hide it from people - this was confi…

So russia tried really hard to NOT invade a sovereign country and US made it impossible? Which twisted logic do you have?

russia had no chance but go in and bomb maternity wards, genocide away freely, poor-poor russia, they had no chance of just not doing any of that?

/s

> Russia made the last attempt to stop the expansion

you even use the word expansion here

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#333

Post by foverzar » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:20 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #296

foverzar wrote: post #229

So, this is mostly a US-centric forum, but I wonder what is the take on this from the perspective of a Finnish person. Is there any controversy or concerns of becoming a foothold for future conflicts? This whole thing has been dragging on for sometime now, had the opinions shifted over time?

I was born when the Soviet Union fell. All my childhood I watched media like James Bond and played games like Command & Conquer about Russian invasion, saw my extended family suffer the generational trauma of war, and being male, am forced by threat of imprisonment to personally accept social responsibility for sacrificing my life defending our country from Russian invasion, I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare…

> I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare is over.

Ouch. Genuinely hate to be the bearer of bad news, but everything I know about politics (especially from Russian perspective) tells me that this is only the beginning and uncorking of a potential conflict.

I assume, you do not expect that NATO membership would put Finland into a direct hot confrontation with Russia, thus turning into a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

> WW3, or at the very least win it together.

Eh, there will be no winner in WWIII - only how much everyone loses before they decide to strike some kind of eventual deal. And IMO the WWIII had already started by the modern military standards of multi-domain operations.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#334

Post by carlosjobim » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:24 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #222

BurningFrog wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. Though it's good to remember the Soviet Union did even worse things to Russia.

Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR. That’s a bit like lamenting that how messed up an abusers knuckles got after hitting it on folks faces for so long.

> Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR.

Have you heard about Stalin? Where was he from?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#335

Post by seanw444 » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:24 PM UTC

staringback wrote: post #295

boeingUH60 wrote: post #247

Score a win for the US, NATO, and the west. Putin is a weak fraud who has been exposed…can’t wait for his regime to collapse, all without the west lifting a finger. When you meet a mad paranoid dog like Putin, the best thing is to bait them and let them eat themselves just like Putin has done.

70 billion of US taxpayer money isn't even lifting a finger?

It's not their money, so why would it matter to them?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#336

Post by Izkata » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #303

tokai wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... they are both not downvoted. I have comments under both of them, and there is a lively discussion.

You can't see downvotes on a direct link. But on the main comments page I can see the first one heavily downvoted.

And now they're both [flagged] [dead]

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#337

Post by Convolutional » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:33 PM UTC

jnsaff2 wrote: post #282

Convolutional wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That's some mental gymnastics. In one sentence you say: muscovy has no interest in Finland and in the next: now Finland is threatened because they are in NATO. Because now muscovy is interested in them? Because something else?

There are no gymnastics - previously Finland and Russia had a diplomatic relationship.

Now if Russia has a conflict with one of the Baltic states, Finland is dragged into it.

Before a war between Lithuania and Russia would not involve Finland necessarily. Now Finland has pledged a war between Lithuania and Russia would involve Finland.

Not many mental gymnastics are needed - to a person who reaches the level of average intelligence any how.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#338

Post by seanw444 » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:33 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #271

itsoktocry wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single reply in this thread that even questions America as the "good guys" is downvoted instantly.

This site skews fairly liberal/progressive and the progressives are "The System" today so of course they jealously defend it from criticism on any front. It's a bit disorienting because traditionally the left has been the critic/counter culture, but they've won the meaningful and influential cultural and economic institutions (universities, media, tech, etc) over the last 50 years. Sure, they aren't the flag waving (…

> Those guys live in a make believe place that will never come back.

Not with that attitude.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#339

Post by schnebbau » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:34 PM UTC

staringback wrote: post #295

boeingUH60 wrote: post #247

Score a win for the US, NATO, and the west. Putin is a weak fraud who has been exposed…can’t wait for his regime to collapse, all without the west lifting a finger. When you meet a mad paranoid dog like Putin, the best thing is to bait them and let them eat themselves just like Putin has done.

70 billion of US taxpayer money isn't even lifting a finger?

It's 0.3% of GDP, so I would say no.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#340

Post by diimdeep » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:36 PM UTC

_uoud wrote: post #193

For people not very well versed into the background of this, the pop-geopolitics personality-phenomena Peter Zeihan did a recap on it today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vt3CxtQsuQ&ab_channel=Zeiha...

It is not background but U.S. centric perspective, that results in tunnel world view and bubble info diet, and man in question is analyst for Stratfor from 2000. Zeihan spent 12 years at Stratfor, eventually rising to vice-president.