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Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

mattbruenig.com

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Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#331

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

brk wrote: post #307
hbarka wrote: post #109

Assuming you are grid-tied, the reduction of electric bills is predicated on net metering, where the utility company gives you (ideally) 1-for-1 credit for the electricity you produce. In California, this was called NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0. Every few years the California utilities lobby the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) to chip away at the NEM program. This year the PUC voted unanimously to cut net energy metering an…

No, you'd don't need net metering to make it viable. In a typical grid-tied system, the setup is such that any demand is fulfilled first by solar capacity, and second from the grid. If your array can fulfill 100% (or more) of your demand, then you pull nothing from the grid. If you don't have a net metering arrangement and you regularly produce more than 100% of your local demand, then your options are to simply thro…

>… the most cost effective solar systems will supply about 75-80% of your average monthly demand

I am not so sure that is true. Seemingly a large percentage of new installation costs are fixed (paperwork, labor, inverters, etc) with only a smaller portion for the panels themselves. For a minor incremental cost, you can fully provision your house.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#332

Post by caseysoftware »

eppp wrote: post #128
hbarka wrote: post #109

Assuming you are grid-tied, the reduction of electric bills is predicated on net metering, where the utility company gives you (ideally) 1-for-1 credit for the electricity you produce. In California, this was called NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0. Every few years the California utilities lobby the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) to chip away at the NEM program. This year the PUC voted unanimously to cut net energy metering an…

Because net metering is forcing the utility to purchase power at the retail rate. It doesn't make any sense. It isn't a profit margin issue. There is a massive infrastructure and expense to deliver wholesale power to an individual customer and it has to be recouped. Either you sell back your power at some percent of wholesale or solar installs need to get a corresponding increased delivery fee.

> Because net metering is forcing the utility to purchase power at the retail rate.

No, it doesn't.

I have solar+battery with net metering. I buy from the electric company at ~11.5c/kWh and sell our excess to them at ~2.7c/kWh for a difference of ~4.3x

As the sole entity that you can sell to - short of regulators being involved - they set the rate. And yes, there's already a monthly connection fee.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#333

Post by jefftk »

VintageLight wrote: post #120
jefftk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having 21 panels requires a rectangle 17ft by 24ft (each panel is 5.4ft by 3.25ft). That's far from an estate: if it's a two story home with a flat roof you're talking 816sqft compared to a US median of 2,300sqft.

1. Most roofs aren't flat. 2. For pitched roofs, you're only going to want to install on the south or west facing sides. So only some percentage of your roof area is ideal.

A pitched roof and installing on only half doesn't change it that much. If your roof is 45deg then you're talking about a 24x24 building. If that's two stories this is 1152sqft, still less than half the size of the median US house.

There are roof designs where even on a large house 21 panels won't fit, but looking around my neigborhood most houses could easily do that many.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#334

Post by ok_dad »

caseysoftware wrote: post #332
eppp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because net metering is forcing the utility to purchase power at the retail rate. It doesn't make any sense. It isn't a profit margin issue. There is a massive infrastructure and expense to deliver wholesale power to an individual customer and it has to be recouped. Either you sell back your power at some percent of wholesale or solar installs need to get a corresponding increased delivery fee.

> Because net metering is forcing the utility to purchase power at the retail rate. No, it doesn't. I have solar+battery with net metering. I buy from the electric company at ~11.5c/kWh and sell our excess to them at ~2.7c/kWh for a difference of ~4.3x As the sole entity that you can sell to - short of regulators being involved - they set the rate. And yes, there's already a monthly connection fee.

That is not "net" metering, then. "Net" metering is having an import and an export accumulator meter and charging the customer for the "net" value in the equation "net = import - export". Anything else is marketing bullshit from utility industry organizations.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#335

Post by ok_dad »

axus wrote: post #327
secabeen wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we need is a fundamental change in electricity billing. The value in a grid connection is in its reliability, availability and demand response (you can demand anything from 1 Amp to 200 Amps at any time, with no notice). The current usage-only billing model is broken. What we should do is pay a large flat monthly fee for the grid connection, then a lower rate for generation/usage, rather than bundling the delive…

Why do power companies even buy back solar power in the first place? It seems like it's not in their interest to help their customers compete with them. I do agree there should be a connection fee, like an Internet connection, that covers fixed costs. Watts cost more than bytes, so a usage fee makes sense too.

> Why do power companies even buy back solar power in the first place? It seems like it's not in their interest to help their customers compete with them.

Good question! The more power you generate locally, the less you need to transmit along expensive infrastructure, so it is actually in the interest of utilities to utilize and pay for all of the generation capacity they can as close to the consumer as possible. You can't get any closer to the consumer than paying their neighbor to power their house!

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#336

Post by caseysoftware »

ok_dad wrote: post #334
caseysoftware wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because net metering is forcing the utility to purchase power at the retail rate. No, it doesn't. I have solar+battery with net metering. I buy from the electric company at ~11.5c/kWh and sell our excess to them at ~2.7c/kWh for a difference of ~4.3x As the sole entity that you can sell to - short of regulators being involved - they set the rate. And yes, there's already a monthly connection fee.

That is not "net" metering, then. "Net" metering is having an import and an export accumulator meter and charging the customer for the "net" value in the equation "net = import - export". Anything else is marketing bullshit from utility industry organizations.

That's what I thought "net metering" was before getting solar too. Most don't do that.

Unfortunately, billing departments run the world.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#337

Post by ok_dad »

caseysoftware wrote: post #336
ok_dad wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not "net" metering, then. "Net" metering is having an import and an export accumulator meter and charging the customer for the "net" value in the equation "net = import - export". Anything else is marketing bullshit from utility industry organizations.

That's what I thought "net metering" was before getting solar too. Most don't do that. Unfortunately, billing departments run the world.

That is supposed to be what net metering is, but electric utilities captured the regulators and changed the definition to ensure they could cheat the consumer out of the value of their bought and paid for solar panels.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#338

Post by ezfe »

praxulus wrote: post #144
hbarka wrote: post #109

Assuming you are grid-tied, the reduction of electric bills is predicated on net metering, where the utility company gives you (ideally) 1-for-1 credit for the electricity you produce. In California, this was called NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0. Every few years the California utilities lobby the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) to chip away at the NEM program. This year the PUC voted unanimously to cut net energy metering an…

Net metering just doesn't make sense though. Everyone who wants to rely on the grid for power availability ought to pay for grid upkeep costs. Net metering would make sense if it came on top of a baseline "connectivity fee" that covered grid maintenance, but that's not the current policy, would likely be politically infeasible, and would hurt rooftop solar customers financially anyway. Subsidizing solar is a perfectl…

But that's why your bill has generation and delivery split into two lines. Net meter the generation line but don't touch the delivery line.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#339

Post by david422 »

manimino wrote: post #302
whycombagator wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never usually see it factored in as a cost but if a roof is replaced or a leak forms under the panels (or a panel) then the cost of removing/re-installing the panel(s) surely isn’t free. So that cost should also be included

Cleaning panels also needs to happen periodically. That cost can be in the thousands, especially if your roof is hard to access (e.g. high off the ground). There are so many ways a rooftop solar installation investment can turn against you. If regulations change, your net metering goes away. If electricity prices drop, your ROI goes negative. Rooftop solar is a fun enthusiast project, but it's a lousy use of solar pa…

I have rooftop solar - and eventually I will need a new roof - which will require taking the solar panels off and then mounting them back on again - labor costs. Additionally the inverter will fail at a certain point and that is not cheap. Given some ballpark estimates, I do feel like it could simply be a wash financially.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#340

Post by [deleted] »

ok_dad wrote: post #337
caseysoftware wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I thought "net metering" was before getting solar too. Most don't do that. Unfortunately, billing departments run the world.

That is supposed to be what net metering is, but electric utilities captured the regulators and changed the definition to ensure they could cheat the consumer out of the value of their bought and paid for solar panels.

[deleted]
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