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Men Without Work (2016)

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331–340 of 471 posts

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#331
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about the social contract. Which is largely culturally dependent. Society may have never cared about young men, but (as someone else said here) the old contract with men here was build and fight wars and monogamy is enforced most will get the opportunity to raise their own family. As I get older I realize that evolution is less about me and my DNA and more about the cultural DNA of civilization. There's indi…

Yeah no, that's social darwinism. If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. I also don't quite get what exactly you're criticizing. Life has become too easy, which somehow in turn makes life unbearably hard for young men, so they rightfully escape and…

I'm for sure not criticizing Social Darwinism, just making an observation that those forces are at work here and will eventually judge the fitness of the cultural changes we're making.

I do think that the western version of extreme individualism and sexual liberation has led to a fracturing of our American/western family structure. Combined with great abundance which has enabled us to transition from a culture that places value long term stability to one that values immediate gratification. If we don't look deeper than surface level, there seem to be few downsides. But, as data like this shows, the cracks/fractures underneath things are getting larger and harder to ignore. We thought this social change was all upside, no downside. Turns out you can't have your cake and eat it too.

There was a time when the average man needed to have a stable job to get an average woman's attention and eventually start a family. That leveled the playfield for young men, and incentivized most of them to help build things, fight wars, and start families. In the past average joe 5/10 stood a decent chance at a decent life. In our current era of selfishness, playing by the rules doesn't guarantee life or mating success. So many average joes prefer escaping into video games and generally checking-out, epidemic of fatherlessness, etc. When in Rome.

I do worry that these may be all signs of irreversible western decline, which is not so much a tragedy for me, but is for my children and soon to be grandchildren. I wanted something better for them, but sometimes it feels like we just got something better for ourselves.

Lastly, to your point about the fitness of ultra-conservative cultures. Listen, I'm not judging rightness or wrongness here, it's evolution judging based merely on cultural fitness criteria. And you brought it up.

Evolutionarily speaking there must be some beneficial mechanism enabling conservative cultures to persist/persevere after all of these millennia. I believe its because it ensures relatively maximal breeding odds spread out amongst largest population, combined with social stability and continuity. And I agree it's can be downright terrible for many people living in it! But it's not about them, it's about survival of the fittest culture. DNA does not care if you are happy, only that it spreads.

And at least its better than Spartacism and other brutal ancient cultures that have thankfully died out. Turns out there are worse forms of ultra-conservatism. Please don't take this as me approving of ultra-conservatism, it's evolution doing the judging here and I'm just reporting the facts as I see them.

When confronted with data like this, I feel we should all be asking is "Are the cultural changes we are making going to ensure the survival of our culture for our children and our children's children?". Or are we pursuing a cultural dead end (and the chaos that brings) like so many civilizations before us?

Ultimately with all the ups and downs I still feel my life is a success story. But I do sense a general cultural decline that suggests my offspring won't have the same opportunities for life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that I did. And that really bothers me. That's my criticism I guess.

My son said it best, lately it's everyone for themselves. So why waste energy looking out for your fellow citizens who most certainly aren't looking out for you?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. We can pat ourselves on the back about changing gender roles, but the fact remains that when a man loses his job his chance of divorce goes way up. [1] Personally I think trying to reprogram humans to fight biology is a lost cause. But people keep trying. [1] https://time.com/4425061/unemployment-divorce-men-women/

Strikes fear in my heart. Just a little over a year ago, July 2021, I left FAANG to start my own software consulting company and there were periods of feast or famine (especially during early days...I mean its still early days, I guess) with the income exploding then dropping to nil. In order to preserve my marriage, I sometimes (okay, often) wonder whether I should return back to the old 9-5. Life trade offs.

I would say yes. Maximize your income/take as much as possible while you are young as opportunities will evaporate one day. I've been unemployed for 8 years and can't even get blue collar jobs because I've always been a white collar worker. I literally have decades of experience working for high profile fortune 500 companies managing commercial web site and software production. Now everyone wants programmers or lead programmers they can pile management or design tasks onto, or just project managers or scrum masters or business analysts or product owners, not someone whose job has been to do all of those things and needs to level up.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#333
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some men change their own tires. Some men call AAA when they get a flat. Some women change their own tires. Some women call AAA when they get a flat. All of these people are real.

Yes, they are all real people but masculinity means changing your own tires unless old or otherwise enfeebled. Otherwise being a man or a woman means nothing but chromosome delivery mechanisms.

> but masculinity means changing your own tires

Does it? Does it also mean not cooking & cleaning? Never crying? Watching sports? Not changing diapers? Never eating quiche?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#334
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essentially calling someone a NPC or otherwise providing this level of snark goes against the posting guidelines of the site. I would encourage you to reread what the comment guidelines are to enrich the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

For someone with such low karma you sure are the expert on all things HN. In my humble opinion, only a mindless NPC would think my comparing the erroneous platitudes and baseless claims of the above to an LLM was not appropriate to the spirit of HN. Those guidelines, btw, absolute shit, I'm sorry to say. They degrade the quality of conversation around here by devaluing passionate debate. They explicitly eschew many r…

> For someone with such low karma [...]

You have 129. What are you doing criticizing the karma of others? Karma doesn't matter, they're still right: "Please don't post shallow dismissals"

> Those guidelines, btw, absolute shit, I'm sorry to say. They degrade the quality of conversation around here by devaluing passionate debate.

No, shallow dismissals like what you did are what devalue debate.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. We can pat ourselves on the back about changing gender roles, but the fact remains that when a man loses his job his chance of divorce goes way up. [1] Personally I think trying to reprogram humans to fight biology is a lost cause. But people keep trying. [1] https://time.com/4425061/unemployment-divorce-men-women/

Strikes fear in my heart. Just a little over a year ago, July 2021, I left FAANG to start my own software consulting company and there were periods of feast or famine (especially during early days...I mean its still early days, I guess) with the income exploding then dropping to nil. In order to preserve my marriage, I sometimes (okay, often) wonder whether I should return back to the old 9-5. Life trade offs.

Isn’t it rather prudent to also wonder whether such a marriage is worth preserving which requires one to walk on such eggshells? I mean beyond the usual “but I love my… adjustments.. you know you know.. ” trope.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#336
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. We can pat ourselves on the back about changing gender roles, but the fact remains that when a man loses his job his chance of divorce goes way up. [1] Personally I think trying to reprogram humans to fight biology is a lost cause. But people keep trying. [1] https://time.com/4425061/unemployment-divorce-men-women/

I mean, we're making pretty good progress with gene editing and understanding how the brain works on a neurological level. If biology is the problem, we might have an actual chance to solve this :)

Wow build a better human and all that.

Eugenics all over again. Are you serious or is this sarcasm?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#337
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they decided to check out en-masse They are literally forbidden to leave the country (only men, 18-60yo, with some exceptions [0]). It's not men choosing not to check-out, it's literally men being forced to die for a piece of land they might not even care for. [0] https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-ca...

It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?

If things are so dire, why aren't women drafted too? Why is anyone allowed to leave the country?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strikes fear in my heart. Just a little over a year ago, July 2021, I left FAANG to start my own software consulting company and there were periods of feast or famine (especially during early days...I mean its still early days, I guess) with the income exploding then dropping to nil. In order to preserve my marriage, I sometimes (okay, often) wonder whether I should return back to the old 9-5. Life trade offs.

Isn’t it rather prudent to also wonder whether such a marriage is worth preserving which requires one to walk on such eggshells? I mean beyond the usual “but I love my… adjustments.. you know you know.. ” trope.

You're right of course.

Unfortunately many of us us learn far too late that their marriage wasn't worth preserving in the first place.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#340
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if you're willing to fight and die for some lines on paper, what matters is people are willing to come kill you for possession of those lines.

Most people including armies don't want to kill you, a civillian. Even more so if you move away for the time of the war and then come back after it's over. The problem is, that your own government won't let you leave, will make you fight (and probably die) and imprison you if you desert.

If you were in Mariupol, or Bakhmut, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad, it sure didn't matter if you were a civilian or not. And hell, all of Eastern Europe during WW2, it barely mattered. When it did, that might mean 'just' getting shot and pushed into a ditch instead of shot and left on the battlefield.

And the reason that societies don't just let folks leave is because the whole is stronger than the parts - and they don’t want you or some other part bailing and getting them all killed.

Though sometimes, even that isn’t enough.

In the best case, it's the collective good trying to protect itself. In the worst case, it's the controlling parent dragging you down with them.

While certainly a survival strategy for an individual to desert, it has heavy costs - and don't expect any friends in those who are left behind.

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