Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

nbcnewyork.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

331–340 of 683 posts

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#331

Post by s1artibartfast »

francisofascii wrote: post #160
crmd wrote: post #117

The legal rights of a corporation should rapidly decrease as it gains market power. My neighborhood bar should be allowed to 86 me for just about anything, but Madison Square Garden Entertainment, Ticketmaster, and Live Nation should not. Same thing with google and Amazon banning people from their platform for a single good faith credit card chargeback.

Unless your neighborhood bar is the only bar.

I don't think I agree. You don't have right to be served alcohol within convenient walking distance.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#332

Post by josephcsible »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #324
josephcsible wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, your right to deny people entry to your private property should end once you take their money for tickets to enter. After all, it's not like she bought her ticket under a fake name.

What if you didn't take their money and they bought a ticket via 3rd party, as is often the case?

Then you should have required the 3rd party to provide a list of names at the time of purchase.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#333

Post by monksy »

kstrauser wrote: post #262
commandlinefan wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it can be used against them, too Is it facial recognition that's the problem here, or the policy itself? In theory, they could hand out pictures of everybody who wasn't allowed in to the security staff and use low-tech facial recognition to enforce the same policy - assuming it was scalable, would it be OK then? I remember reading that IBM got into trouble when it first computerized its personnel files because some…

You're right: it's the policy that's bad. However, facial recognition is what makes enforcing that policy possible, and society and the law haven't changed quickly enough to deal with the repercussions. For instance, say 18 year old "Joe" gets caught stealing soda from a fast food place. The manager kicks him out and bans him from the store. Fast forward a decade, when Joe walks back into the store with his wife and…

This is happening already with PatronScan which is being pushed agressively into schools, and bars: https://scribe.nixnet.services/id-at-the-door-meet-the-secur...

There have been references to the ban lists going from one venue to another.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#334

Post by michpoch »

LarryMullins wrote: post #323
aidenn0 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition, mere customer satisfaction secondary to the primary job is not enough to establish BFOQ; it's a thin line though as Hooters seems to hide behind BFOQ (thus essentially stating that the primary reason for their serving staff is sex appeal), while flight attendants cannot. I suppose if you had an airline called "cleavage air" and had all the flight attendants wear low-cut tops, then you might get away with…

Indeed. The law says that sex is characteristic that may be a BFOQ, and in the case of Hooters it seems to be. BFOQs may apply to sex, religion, and national origin, but not the other protected classes.

Could Hooters then reject a woman based on visual trait connected to a race, arguing that it doesn't give her the required "sex appeal"? Skin colour would be of course to obvious, but lips size or body shape?

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#335

Post by s1artibartfast »

bewaretheirs wrote: post #61

Many organizations (including the Girl Scouts) have required chaperone-to-kid ratios for trips like this. Booting one chaperone from a trip could put the entire party out of compliance with the organization's policy and require exclusion of some fraction of the group or possibly cancellation of the trip. Typical Girl Scout policy here: https://www.gsnorcal.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gsnorcal/doc... (Note the requirem…

Maybe the girlscouts should set up facial recognition for their troop events to identify and blacklist policy violators.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#336

Post by baxtr »

She wasn’t allowed to a show because she is working as a lawyer.

> Conlon is an associate with the New Jersey based law firm, Davis, Saperstein and Solomon, which for years has been involved in personal injury litigation against a restaurant venue now under the umbrella of MSG Entertainment.

"I don’t practice in New York. I’m not an attorney that works on any cases against MSG," said Conlon.

But MSG said she was banned nonetheless — along with fellow attorneys in that firm and others.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#337

Post by akira2501 »

tomp wrote: post #247
tomatotomato37 wrote: post #108

Everyone always goes for the discrimination angle, but what frightens me is that like other modern automated tech of this decade the facial recognition used here probably has a horrendous false positive rate which most institutions will none the less treat as the final truth. Unrelated this is also why I fear most of this new AI stuff so much despite working in the field; the accuracy rates on these things in product…

They didn’t ban her on the basis of face recognition. She just got flagged by security, after which they asked for her ID and banned her on the basis of her real identity. So the chance of false positives is minimal.

So.. what if she wasn't carrying ID? Now it's back to a judgement call, and I can bet I know which side the guards are going to err on.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#338

Post by LarryMullins »

kstrauser wrote: post #325
oceanplexian wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s because we aren’t governed by a democracy, we’re governed by a massive administrative state. Some middle manager vying for a promotion decides adding cameras will benefit him in some way, privacy be damned. For example, TSA recently started doing facial recognition in airports and most passengers were just happily going along with it last time I went through security. The public is expected to submit and comply,…

I get the lack of resistance to the TSA thing. I’m not saying my opinion here is the correct one, but here’s how I see it: That ship has sailed. You no longer have a reasonable expectation of privacy in an airport. Courts have ruled that safety concerns override privacy considerations inside them. Alright, well, if this is the system we’re stuck with, then we might as well make it efficient. Now we have TSA PreCheck…

> TSA PreCheck

That system was created to avoid what you mention earlier, privileged people in society being inconvenienced and feeling motivated to speak out against these systems. Instead of subjecting the movers and shakers to the full brunt of the TSA, such people are allowed to opt out of the tyranny for a small (to them) fee.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#339

Post by Zak »

JackFr wrote: post #312
Zak wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Venues should be required to refund tickets if a person is denied entry provided they weren't previously told they were banned from the venue.

The law firm were notified prior (2x) that employees would not be allowed entry to MSG. Having been so warned, she bought a ticket and tried to go. After having been warned and then being prevented from going in, her response is to sue them again.

I don't think notifying her firm is good enough. She should have to be notified individually, directly, and provably for them to get out of refunding the ticket.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#340

Post by kstrauser »

LarryMullins wrote: post #330
underwater wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scale is also an issue. So many things are either owned by a megacorp or run via a centralised platform. Getting banned by a store pales in comparison to being banned by Uber, Google, Visa, etc.

Just as most websites today use captchas run by one or two companies, we may see a scenario unfold where most brick and mortar businesses use a facial recognition blacklisting system run by one or two companies. Get labelled as trouble by the system and you'll be banned by every store in town.

That’s a great point. For that matter, imagine that being maintained by Verisign or the like. Get a ding on your social credit report, and voila, you can’t walk into a grocery store anymore.
Post reply on HN