Kanye West is buying Parler • Hacker News Board

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#331

Post by andrewclunn » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #11

Musk and everyone else is right that we do need a platform with free speech. The only problem is that all those free speech advocates are actually NIMBY's when it comes to free speech. I have been following self proclaimed free speech absolutists(because I too, believe in free speech but don't believe it exists) and they are totally not the kind of people that say "I hate what you say but I will die defending your ri…

Free speech advocacy was trendy with the left when the right held more institutional power. Now it's embraced (at least as a slogan) by the right. In much the same way I don't trust Apple to give a damn about software freedom, but they backed Webkit and clang for their own self interested reasons. I accept that being "on the side of free expression" means that I will need to shift political allegiances now and then as power consolidation shifts. Along the way the tools for enabling and preserving free speech get better and better though. Long live the anti-establishment wingnut right... until they win, then I'll be hanging with Jimmy Dore.

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#332

Post by CM30 » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #11

Musk and everyone else is right that we do need a platform with free speech. The only problem is that all those free speech advocates are actually NIMBY's when it comes to free speech. I have been following self proclaimed free speech absolutists(because I too, believe in free speech but don't believe it exists) and they are totally not the kind of people that say "I hate what you say but I will die defending your ri…

I think the main thing that would help there wouldn't be to force any particular platform to allow all speech, but to make it so anyone who wanted to set up such a site or platform could do so without fear of being bullied off the internet by an angry mob or moral puritanism. Web hosting services, firewall services like Cloudflare, payment processers like Visa and Mastercard and internet providers should be regulated as utilities like water and electric companies are.

If that was done, then there would be far less issues here. Those who want free speech focused platforms could create them, and those who didn't want to use them wouldn't have to. The problem at the moment is that not only is there no place for free speech online, but any attempts at creating one can be bullied off the internet by an angry mob on social media because of companies and PR.

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#333

Post by bambax » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #249

coinbasetwwa wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

He believes his kids friends are "professional actors" who were placed there to "sexualize" them, that The Gap knew about the Uvalde shooting before it happened, and that Pete Davidson slept with his wife through the mechinations of an international Jewish conspiracy. You're doing the same thing Fox did: quoting the least unhinged things and pretending the most unhinged things didn't get said. And, as I'm sure will h…

Millions of people believe the Covid vaccine was designed to kill them, or that the Clintons eat fetuses in pizzerias. Millions more are absolutely certain a Jewish secret cabal runs the world. Are they "insane", or just dumb?

Kanye West is pushing conspiracies a little further, into the domestic realm.

What's upsetting is that when ordinary John Does promote conspiracy theories they are shunned, but when it's a successful artist we try to find them excuses.

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#334

Post by jjtheblunt » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

AlwaysRock wrote: post #213

tptacek wrote: post #117

This is really a story about a celebrity's mental illness and public breakdown. If you haven't been following the news, West has spent the week saying increasingly unhinged things, not just about politics but about Pete Davidson, his wife, and (if I'm remembering right) his kids and the fake actor children that have been installed in his former home to corrupt them. He was interviewed for a show on Fox and a big chun…

It's sad because to become successful Kanye had to ignore hundreds/thousands of important people telling him he wasnt good enough and he would never make it as a rapper. Then he became, arguably, the most popular rapper/hip hop artist of all time. Now image you've done what seems impossible despite countless people telling you it wont work out. You are in the top 1% of fame. Now someone tells you your other ideas are…

> arguably, the most popular rapper/hip hop artist of all time

is he ranked that somewhere?

if so, i'm definitely getting old and out of touch with pop culture, and i'm from the Chicago area so grew up with everything available on the radio.

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#335

Post by DerekBickerton » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

impowski wrote: post #19

I mean you can say “men are trash”, “white people are trash” and so on, but at the same time you are not allowed to say anything against jewish people or other people? Isn’t it kinda hypocritical? Maybe we should not allow toxic behavior at all and have a civil discourse about someone is feeling towards some group of people to allow him to change his mind? Personal attacks and hatred will not do any good this will on…

> Maybe we should not allow toxic behavior at all

Moderation[0] is not censorship. It just means having a productive conversation and debate without name-calling, slurs, and other malfeasance. "Trash" is not a harmful word, but inciting violence against an ethnic group definitely is harmful. There's also historical baggage attached to ethnic groups such as the Jews who were persecuted in an actual war and genocide. "Men" is too generic.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderation

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#336

Post by coinbasetwwa » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:19 PM UTC

hfourm wrote: post #261

coinbasetwwa wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it’s just people arguing on conjecture that folks they disagree with are mentally ill. He is quite obviously sane if you hear him speak.

Did you not watch the Netflix documentary? The last episodes contained many non-obviously-sane conversations. Especially the one where he was talking to bankers at one of their vacation homes.

I’ve seen plenty of weird conversations in the workforce like leaders living in an alternate reality than direct reports to hawk their views, yet never felt motivated to call them mentally ill. I don’t judge how people feel they need to speak to relate to anybody, especially under the influence of alcohol as Kanye was in that segment.

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#337

Post by DerekBickerton » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

houstonn wrote: post #319

nonameiguess wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean you can say “men are trash”, “white people are trash” Are you sure? It's been a few years since I purged all social media from my life, but three years ago, it was going around and seemingly well-documented with screenshots that saying "men are trash" would get your post auto-deleted and your account sanctioned on Facebook. This seems like another of those things where extremists on all sides believe they're…

It is typical. Here is a recent illustration of one from a blue check that attracted a lot of attention but was not removed. https://twitter.com/TalbertSwan/status/1581103527585120257

https://nitter.net/TalbertSwan/status/1581103527585120257

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#338

Post by davewritescode » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

spywaregorilla wrote: post #306

AlwaysRock wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad because to become successful Kanye had to ignore hundreds/thousands of important people telling him he wasnt good enough and he would never make it as a rapper. Then he became, arguably, the most popular rapper/hip hop artist of all time. Now image you've done what seems impossible despite countless people telling you it wont work out. You are in the top 1% of fame. Now someone tells you your other ideas are…

As someone who doesn't listen to much rap / hip hop, and can only name his cover (adaptation?) of Stronger, I do know who Kanye is. I don't know anything about his music. Mostly I just know of him because he's a very public asshole. Much like his wife. I find it basically impossible to empathize with him. I just wouldn't ever be in that situation. "Rising against adversity" is not the story I'd be be using here so mu…

Early Kanye West brought a lot of attention to social issues through his music and was one of the first hip-hop artists to publicly advocate for acceptance of gay folks in hip-hop culture at a time when gay slurs were very common. His first album was downright wholesome as far as hip-hop and there's a reason he was so beloved.

He's been on a long, slow, downward trajectory with his mental health since the death of his mother and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anybody looking out for him anymore. It's really sad to watch at this point.

This is an interview from 2005 where Kanye defended gay people when it wasn't exactly popular. Trigger warning for gay slurs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp45-dQvqPo

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#339

Post by luckylion » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

elil17 wrote: post #210

luckylion wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds to me like picking and choosing what's okay because "opinion" and what's not because "blatant lie".

"Capitalism is the problem" is a statement so broad an non-specific that it can not be a lie. Certainly any economic system has problems. Saying that a specific race is inherently evil is a specific factual claim (one that few people actually make).

> Certainly any economic system has problems

Sure, but there's a huge gap between "X has problems" and "X is _the_ problem", i.e. if only we removed X, everything would be fine. It's absurd.

Re: Kanye West is buying Parler

#340

Post by mariusor » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:21 PM UTC

shafyy wrote: post #111

mariusor wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think moderation should be about the words that are being said, not the ideas that are being discussed. A free speech platform should allow a wide range of topics, but it's not expected to stand for all manner of trolling and bad faith argumentation. I think that conflating the two is tripping a lot of people up in the debate about the topic.

I disagree. There are limits to what ideas constitute free speech in many modern countries. As an extreme example, an idea that puts forward genocide as acceptable form of action should never be allowed under "free speech", even if it's said with nice words. This and other examples are ruled under law in many developed countries.

My words were "a wide range of topics" not "all the topics".

Personally I can think of a meaningful debate that can be had from talking about "genocide" but I'm pretty sure that people that would hold this opinion in truth are a little beyond what would be considered a "good faith" discussion.