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Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
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Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
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Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
#333> “Outside his online play, Hans is the fastest rising top player in Classical [over-the-board] chess in modern history,” the report says, while comparing his progress to the game’s brightest rising stars. “Looking purely at rating, Hans should be classified as a member of this group of top young players. While we don’t doubt that Hans is a talented player, we note that his results are statistically extraordinary.” I…
The word "evidence" is badly misunderstood, often even by the very people throwing it around. There's a rather large contingent of people who use it as a synonym for "proof", thus demonstrating their complete lack of understanding of the very concept even as they think they are looking smart. There's a lot of people who think that it is somehow the responsibility of someone like Carlson to have unambiguous proof that…
You have summed it up beautifully.
In the real world, we have to tolerate the awful smell of people/companies getting away with bad things because it is too easy for a brazen person to sail below the level of proof needed to stop them.
We shouldn’t have to tolerate this in sports, which are an escape from the real world.
Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is why I constantly cheated in school. I got caught once and the penalty was a 0 on the test and a talking to. And only because I was a cheating noob. The benefits were in the thousands and thousands of scholarship dollars. I cheat now in my employment. I work three full time jobs remotely and do the bare minimum in each. The risk is getting fired (and if I only get fired from two of the jobs, I am still ahead o…
Being a TA and discovering that about half the class was engaged in a singular cheating ring (that does not mean the other half is free from cheating) changed my perspective as to how cheating should be dealt with. In general I feel that if enough people are doing the "wrong" thing, then punishing most of the population is probably an even worse move. Failing individuals, marking their transcript, or kicking them out…
>But when you hypothetically punish over half the student body by taking their money and kicking them out...
The opposite also applies though, if you have a large amount of cheaters in each graduating cohort you devalue the degrees and trash the reputation of the institution. Which hurts all of the students, including the cheaters.
Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
#335There is so much more to our report than what was focused on in the WSJ article. The full report will be shared shortly…
The report was great, and answers a lot of questions everyone had. I'm especially glad to see you applied your tools to OTB games. The only disappointing thing was the focus on how fast Hans' rating soared after he hit 2500, and how much it rose between ages 11 and 19.25. These thresholds were very cherry-picked to make Hans look bad, which you didn't need to do. For example, Hans's rating lingered at 2450 for two ye…
If the rate of increase is highly unusual, then the rate itself is the relevant datum, and the interval over which it occurred is not being cherry-picked, even though it may appear to be. In other activities, more than one cheater has been caught out by presenting data that contains a brief period which was physically impossible, and the fact that the averaged data had no such problem did not, of course, make the concern go away.
To be clear, as there is no equivalent to a physical impossibility here, I am not claiming that the rate of rating increase is conclusive; I am saying it seems to be a legitimate concern regardless of how reasonable the broader averages are.
Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
>if they have literal screenshots of the discussions between Niemann and chess.com admitting to cheating Screenshots are easy enough to fake perfectly that if I didn't trust a party to give an honest summary of the discussion and (as in the current stake) thousands of dollars or more is at stake, then I wouldn't trust screenshots either.
Screenshots in this case are perfectly reliable. If they are literally faking screenshots of what Hans said, it'd be incredibly easy for him to prove it and sue them for the falsification.
Can you explain how Hans could prove that screenshots are fake? I suppose you mean Hans could subpoena records from his own ISP or Chess.com or Chess.com's ISP that reveal the content of Hans's communication; right?
Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
Screenshots in this case are perfectly reliable. If they are literally faking screenshots of what Hans said, it'd be incredibly easy for him to prove it and sue them for the falsification.
Can you explain how Hans could prove that screenshots are fake? I suppose you mean Hans could subpoena records from his own ISP or Chess.com or Chess.com's ISP that reveal the content of Hans's communication; right?
Exactly. He can subpoena records, can have a third party get access to e.g. Gmail or whatever he uses, etc.
Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you explain how Hans could prove that screenshots are fake? I suppose you mean Hans could subpoena records from his own ISP or Chess.com or Chess.com's ISP that reveal the content of Hans's communication; right?
Exactly. He can subpoena records, can have a third party get access to e.g. Gmail or whatever he uses, etc.
He can subpoena records if he files a lawsuit, convinces a judge that the lawsuit shouldn't be immediately dismissed and survives arguments by opposing counsel that the records should be protected from the discovery process. I.e., not "incredibly easy", as you say. Also, ISPs usually claim in response to subpoenas that they do not retain the bodies of emails and other "contents" of communications I gather.
Also, Hans (initially) didn't want chess.com to be able to publish the communications, so he might've avoided using gmail in favor of some method that is guaranteed not to leave a verifiable record.
Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It’s at most slightly easier to cheat online This statement is so far removed from reality that I am not sure that it would be productive to continue the discussion.
Your disbelief just shows ignorance. The hard part of cheating isn’t inputting and receiving moves, and in fact documented chess cheating goes back to the late 1800’s.
Well what do I know about chess? my lichess rapid rating is slightly below 2600, so chances are your expertise in chess cheating far exceeds mine.
Please, tell us how exactly did Niemann cheat in that OTB game with Carlsen, and circumvented the measures taken by the tournament organizers?