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Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

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Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#331

Post by scarface74 »

ThatPlayer wrote: post #325
scarface74 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So grab a random “standard” USB C cable. What are the chances that it will charge my MacBook Pro 16 inch that does support “standard” USB C? Will that “standard” USB C cable that comes with my Beats Flex headphones charge my iPhone 12 Pro Max? My Anker battery?

Maybe not, but what's the alternative? Should we give up because of incompatibilities and go back to proprietary cables for everyone? Do we move back to DC jacks that offer no voltage negotiation so you can blow up your 5V battery pack with a 24V input? You're letting perfect be the enemy of good here. Also I think the ideal endgame is that your Beats Flex headphones don't come with cables at all because of standardi…

If the aim is to prevent eWaste yes. Someone should be able to buy a “standard” USB access cable and know that it actually work across devices if it is government mandated. If not, what’s the point of the “standard”?

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#332

Post by yamtaddle »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #55
p-e-w wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is essentially nothing. Imagine an individual, caught committing an illegal act of this magnitude for the third time , being fined 1.45% of their annual pre-tax salary, with no other consequences. Speeding tickets are costlier than this in many jurisdictions.

If you were earning minimal wage in France, that would be about $1500 of fine for the equivalent of being caught commiting burglary for the 3rd time. Quite lucrative.

Factor in marginal utility of income, and it's even more lame. $1,500 means a lot more to someone making minimum wage than $4,000,000,000 does to Google.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#333

Post by edgyquant »

Semaphor wrote: post #216
woeh wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was pleased to see recently that a couple of different brands at my local DIY store had interoperable batteries. I bought a small lawnmower which now uses the same battery as a cordless drill from another brand. The brands that joined are listed on their marketing site[0]. Edit: One of the companies has a slightly less obnoxious website which also lists brands[1] [0] https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technol…

Oh cool, so there are two competing battery pack standards :D https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com

This is why the EU is right we have to regulate these things. There just aren’t right answers here, each battery has pros and cons, so it’s a political matter full stop.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#334

Post by Normille »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #252
efsavage wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support the charging connector standardization, but not tool batteries. There are so many factors in play I don't see how standardization would offer enough benefit to offset innovation penalties. Even within a given brand/connector, there are variations on capabilities like size and duty cycle and power output. I have a bunch of Milwaukee cordless tools on the M18 platform, and the smaller tools (e.g. drills) can…

"Tradespeople won't lock themselves in if the right tool is on a different platform." Right, but home users will. I have 5 Ryobi One+ batteries, so there's no way I'll buy a battery-operated tool from a different brand, even if the tool itself is better/cheaper than the equivalent Ryobi product.

  >Right, but home users will.
Agreed. I've got about half a dozen Makita cordless tools taking the LXT battery. I'm pretty happy with the brand but I do kind of feel like I'm trapped using whatever Makita offers from now on.

The charger cost about £70 and the 3 batteries I have were a similar price, each. So, for me, changing brands for a particular tool would mean an outlay of 'Price of Tool' + 'Price of Charger' + Price of n Batteries' which just isn't worth it, unless the rival company's tool was 2 or 3 times as good as the Makita offering.

I've sometimes thought that maybe Metabo, DeWalt or Milwaukee's version of a certain tool I wanted was slightly better than Makita's one. But, as I say, not twice or three times as good, to justify that kind of outlay.

So, like quite a few people commenting here, I'm kind of stuck with supporting the blue team now --even when they occasionally get outplayed by their opponents.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#335

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #252
efsavage wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support the charging connector standardization, but not tool batteries. There are so many factors in play I don't see how standardization would offer enough benefit to offset innovation penalties. Even within a given brand/connector, there are variations on capabilities like size and duty cycle and power output. I have a bunch of Milwaukee cordless tools on the M18 platform, and the smaller tools (e.g. drills) can…

"Tradespeople won't lock themselves in if the right tool is on a different platform." Right, but home users will. I have 5 Ryobi One+ batteries, so there's no way I'll buy a battery-operated tool from a different brand, even if the tool itself is better/cheaper than the equivalent Ryobi product.

Tradesperson.

There's a reason Milwaukee, Makita, DeWalt, AEG, and Bosch, are wildly popular.

They're almost entirely indistinguishable. We also have some Hilti branded cordless tools, also fine.

My personal preference for home use is something like Ryobi One+ or Ozito PXC (less than half the price of the One+) because I'm actually at work all day using power and cordless tools supplied by work, I don't plan on taking my home tools to three or four hundred commercial construction sites or building 1000 houses with them.

Tool brand preference is, in my opinion, largely a sport-like

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#336

Post by crazygringo »

babelfish wrote: post #288
antonymy wrote: post #280

The fallout from this should be interesting. This fine is a substantial part (roughly 25%!) of Google's overall revenue from the EMEA region (Europe, Middle East, Africa), of which the EU is probably like 90%, at least, of the total, so it's probably toing the line of actually making the EU unprofitable to Google considering the costs of future compliance to avoid being fined again. Worse: this was not as steep as th…

To be clear, while the fines might make operating in the EU unprofitable, they could just...follow EU regulations...and remain profitable, albeit at a likely lower margin

To be fair, it's often very unclear how regulations relating to markets apply. Which is why lawsuits around them often get reversed on appeal, re-reversed on another appeal, and so on.

It's often very open to interpretation what constitutes a market, what constitutes bundling, what constitutes dominance, what constitutes monopoly, what even constitutes a product. There's neither such a thing as clear-cut definitions, nor even common sense (since different people's common sense can be diametrically opposed).

It's things as basic as: is a Sony Walkman with headphones one product or two? What's the difference between Sony requiring you to buy headphones together with the tape player, or Android requiring Google to be the default search? Is "portable cassette player with headphones" a single market, or are "portable cassette players" and "headphones" separate markets?

There's no such thing as "just follow EU regulations". Google and other observers can genuinely believe it's following them, while a specific EU court and yet other observers can genuinely believe it's breaking them.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#337

Post by TheRealPomax »

fatboy wrote: post #106
Normille wrote: post #70

Cool. The EU does have its [many!] faults. But they have a pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights and consumer choice. Next up I'd like to see them do the same for the plethora of incompatible cordless power-tool systems out there as they did with insisting all mobile phones standardise on a USB connector.

I think that's a bit trickier. If Makita or whoever was forced to change their batteries, anyone with a big catalogue of their tools would be pretty miffed. Also, I've mentioned this on hn before, there is already the Cordless Alliance, which does exactly this. Sadly, there's only a couple of useful-in-a-mainstream-sense brands in there: Mafell and Metabo. The rest are very niche.

Why? It's not like manufacturers haven't switched all their batteries themselves before? If all of them are forced to have the same batteries, that's no different from makita or dewalt or bosch going "we're switching to a new 24V battery system, and your old tools won't take them. deal with it".

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#338

Post by at-fates-hands »

nilsbunger wrote: post #196
gwerbret wrote: post #170

A summary of the original findings by the European Commission (1): "By decision of 18 July 2018, the Commission fined Google for having abused its dominant position by imposing anticompetitive contractual restrictions on manufacturers of mobile devices and on mobile network operators, in some cases since 1 January 2011. Three types of restriction were identified: 1. those contained in ‘distribution agreements’, requi…

#2 is the same thing Microsoft got busted for by US antitrust in the late 90s. Microsoft had required computer vendors to NOT sell computers with other OSes (eg Linux). At one point they insisted computer vendors pay for a Windows license on all computers they shipped, even ones shipped without Windows.

The video deposition of Gates was pretty damning during their anti-trust case. I just remember watching it and having my image of Gates shattered right in front of me. The amount of unhinged arrogance and hubris he had was startling. I know it really damaged his clean cut, good guy image and many of my friends said it completely reversed their opinion of him.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#339

Post by Normille »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #208
sorry_i_lisp wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 that the plastic is the main difference are the "everything to Ryobi"-plastic adadpters you can buy. I use Makita battery->Ryobi tool and it works great.

Ryobi are actually the first batteries that I genuinely dislike; I have 8 year old Black & Decker drill whose battery still works great. Similar experience with some other manufacturers. But we went all-in on Ryobi at Home Depot a few years ago, and we now have to buy 2-4 new batteries a year. Then after 12-18 months, the battery shows as defective on its charger.... brutal. (probably less-than-average usage patterns…

That pretty much echoes the reputation Ryobi tools have. ie. the tools themselves are really good but the batteries don't last.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#340

Post by ThatPlayer »

scarface74 wrote: post #331
ThatPlayer wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not, but what's the alternative? Should we give up because of incompatibilities and go back to proprietary cables for everyone? Do we move back to DC jacks that offer no voltage negotiation so you can blow up your 5V battery pack with a 24V input? You're letting perfect be the enemy of good here. Also I think the ideal endgame is that your Beats Flex headphones don't come with cables at all because of standardi…

If the aim is to prevent eWaste yes. Someone should be able to buy a “standard” USB access cable and know that it actually work across devices if it is government mandated. If not, what’s the point of the “standard”?

Well like you say, it is to prevent ewaste.

And even the cheapest power only USB cables with the cheapest USB power supply provides "standard" 5V power. If your device doesn't accept that, isn't that a problem with your Macbook and not the cable?

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