Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case • Hacker News Board

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#331

Post by some_random » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:08 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #256

konschubert wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about we start with not making stuff illegal that we don't want to enforce?

Necessary but not sufficient. Weed is a category B drug in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_the_United_Kingdom This means "with penalties for unlicenced dealing, unlicenced production and unlicenced trafficking of up to 14 years in prison, an unlimited fine, or both. The maximum penalty for possession of cannabis is five years in prison and an unlimited fine." The police absolutely try to enforce thi…

So that shouldn't be a law then, the argument goes.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#332

Post by digdugdirk » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:10 PM UTC

freeopinion wrote: post #319

Jury nullification is just one manifestation of good-ol'-boy-ism. Good-ol'-boy-ism is a good thing when it let's the sheriff of Mayberry teach a kid a lesson without making him a felon and ruining his future. Good-ol'-boyism is a horrible thing when it let's the sheriff of Mayberry teach a kid a lesson, making him a felon and ruining his future. I have personally benefited from the former. I don't know how to reconci…

That said, if the good-ol'-boy-ism exists, wouldn't you prefer it exist in the hands of a group of disparate individuals chosen (mostly) at random?

I'd prefer that situation over it solely existing in the hands of a few police/judges/etc. with incredible power in deciding the future of the lives of those without power.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#333

Post by baobabKoodaa » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:10 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #300

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, the lawyers present in the courtroom routinely arrive at a disagreement on this point. For some mysterious reason, the lawyers hired by the accused will routinely find that no law was broken, whereas the lawyers hired by the accuser will routinely find that laws had been broken. So perhaps your suggestion of lawyers deciding on verdict has some issues?

> So perhaps your suggestion of lawyers deciding on verdict has some issues? As far as I know, bench trials are successfully conducted throughout the world.

You're correct. I tried to make a point but I went too far with it.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#334

Post by bluGill » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

netheril96 wrote: post #242

whimsicalism wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person, who is typically elected. And that's if federal authorities decide to not get involved.

If the whole community believes X is not a crime and willing to nullify the law as juries, certainly they will elect a prosecutor who thinks the same.

They will also elect legislators that will remove such laws.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#335

Post by samloveshummus » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

altacc wrote: post #144

In the UK jury nullification came into the spotlight at the beginning of this year when four people who helped topple a statue of a slave trader in Bristol were found not guilty by a jury, even though they admitted doing so and there was video & photo evidence. The jury decided that they had acceptable reasons for their actions. [1] The reaction from the right wing government and its supporters was barely short of ap…

The Bristol Four acquittal was not an act of jury nullification.

Under the Criminal Damage Act 1971, no offense is committed if there is a "lawful excuse" for the damage.

The defence argued that there was a lawful excuse on several grounds:

1. The defendants believed they were preventing a more serious crime (public indecency because of the statue's offensiveness).

2. The defendants believed the statue was owned by the citizens of Bristol (as stated on its plaque), who they believe consented to its removal.

3. Their right to freedom of expression and assembly under the European Convention on Human Rights.

The judge instructed the jury that they were allowed to consider questions such as the statue's offensiveness in deciding whether these excuses applied.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#336

Post by noasaservice » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:28 PM UTC

Perhaps a proper addressing of "Should this law be a law?" be considered, before the case is presented?

That way, the jury can decide, without any evidence, if a law is just. And that should be with as many biases removed, including things like sex, gender, skin color, clothing, etc.

There's always a disconnect in republics between the populace and the representatives. Reps may pass laws the populace doesn't want, and the reps say "we know your best interest". And, getting laws to legalize illegal things usually end up in its own malthusian trap of "politician is soft on crime!"

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#337

Post by bluGill » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:28 PM UTC

DocTomoe wrote: post #224

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if "the vast majority of citizens thinks something is a good thing", shouldn't it be legal in the first place? Because democracy Sort of. It’s tyranny of the majority [1]. The meaning of democracy has changed over millennia. Classically, democracy encompasses “freedom of assembly, association, property rights, freedom of religion and speech, inclusiveness and equality, citizenship, consent of the governed, voting r…

Traditionally, democracy meant 'all Athenian male unenslaved citizens meet up every now and then to decide by majority whom to banish from the city' -> the exact reason why democracy was a dirty word for classical political philosophers, like Plato: tyranny of the masses was built in from the start. What you describe was an "age of enlightenment"-style idealised version of democracy that lived for a short time before…

The problem is direct democracy is everyone needs to show up at the same time. It is impossible to do this for any modern community of more than 100 people and even going that large is only possible if you limit who has a vote to [white adult males] or some such subgroup that allows someone else (women and children in this example) to take care of everything else that can't be ignored while in the meeting. Once you get larger than that someone has a conflict and they won't be able to show up, and now they have no input.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#338

Post by ogogmad » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #277

daenz wrote: post #6

Is jury nullification the ultimate trump card? From what little I know about it, it seems that if enough people in a community knew about it, they could 100% control what crimes are punished in that community. On face value, that makes a sort of sense intuitively, but obviously it has to be balanced against crimes that are in principle clearly wrong, despite what a local community believes.

There was a time in England that theft was punishable by the death penalty. When I was younger, I learned that changed because of behavior of criminals under incentives: when stealing the bread is punishable by death, you may as well kill the baker too, to cover your tracks and maximize survival odds. That might be true, but the more specific issue England (specifically, London) ran into is that trials for theft were…

Checks out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Code

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#339

Post by throwaway0a5e » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

CrazyPyroLinux wrote: post #315

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of our greatest failures as a species is that we have yet to architect a society in which these sorts of double standards of personal belief have sufficient consequences to prevent people from engaging in them with the fervor and frequency that they do.

I think one of our greatest failures as a species is the hubris of _thinking_ that we can "architect a society"

The organization of society is not outside our control. We've been architecting society for 1000s of years based on what has worked and what hasn't in years past. We aren't just along for the ride although that is a convenient excuse to do nothing and make no effort.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#340

Post by dayvid » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

freeopinion wrote: post #319

Jury nullification is just one manifestation of good-ol'-boy-ism. Good-ol'-boy-ism is a good thing when it let's the sheriff of Mayberry teach a kid a lesson without making him a felon and ruining his future. Good-ol'-boyism is a horrible thing when it let's the sheriff of Mayberry teach a kid a lesson, making him a felon and ruining his future. I have personally benefited from the former. I don't know how to reconci…

It's why the war on drugs doesn't work. You either decriminalize or have a strict zero-tolerance policy like Singapore.

Otherwise, tons of poor people and minorities are arrested on drug charges, while suburban and rich people joke about doing coke and taking illegal prescription drugs.