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Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

carwow.co.uk

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Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#331

Post by ehnto »

analog31 wrote: post #284
timellis-smith wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on what type of bike you have. On a mountain bike, anyday. On a road bike with paper thin tyres that easily puncture, maybe not so much.

Bikes are a lot less delicate than people seem to think. My daily driver has road bike rims and tires. They're quite durable. The region has some bike paths that are crushed limestone on hard clay, and sometimes I find myself on gravel roads, off-road shortcuts, or even "easy" mountain bike trails. The main issue is comfort. Riding rough roads on hard tires gets old after a while. Also, real MTB'ing, where the trails…

It's me that is not durable, if I had to ride daily on 80psi road tires I'd shake to bits!

Funnily enough I do MTB, and I have a full suspension and a fully rigid frame both offering their own challenges.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#332

Post by jeroenhd »

dotancohen wrote: post #330
jeroenhd wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on [1] this first result on Google, a truck can carry about 300,000 tomatoes. I don't think those tomatoes are going to add up very soon. A loaded truck of about 80,000 pounds (11.5 times the weight) would have 17490 times the road impact compared to the same trip driven back home. Distributed over 300,000 tomatoes, the cost wouldn't be all that much. Despite inefficient engines and truck construction, bulk tra…

The issue isn't that 17490 / 300000 is a small number. The issue is that the road wear is not being paid by the entity creating that wear, and is disproportionately being borne by those actually trying to solve climate change problems by driving smaller, electric vehicles. If there is currently not enough taxes being collected to maintain the roads, then start taxing those who do the most damage. That entity can then…

The problem with that is that the heavy electric cars are actually damaging the road more than their ICE counterparts because of their huge batteries. For some countries this isn't much of a problem, just buy a normal car instead if an SUV and you should get the cost difference back, but for others the mileage of current smaller electric cars just isn't practical.

We could make exemptions for electric vehicles powered by green energy like we do right now for trucks and other large equipment, but that'll mostly hit the poorer populations who can't afford an electric car. Tacking road maintenance costs onto other general goods in the form of taxes disproportionately hits people who try to avoid using a car for the environment and the liveability of their city, for example by taking public transport or a bike.

A future where everyone drives electric is going to be more expensive because of electric car technology. I'd say pay the difference with two different taxes: one for car weight/wheel load, another for pollution through (similarly hefty) gas taxes. Heavy EVs pay extra for the road damage, ICEs pay for their pollution to encourage cleaner cars, and heavy SUVs/pickup trucks pay both.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#333

Post by innocentoldguy »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #194
innocentoldguy wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed, here in the states, cyclists pay for the roads that we use. This isn’t true where I live. Taxes on gasoline purchases pay for the roads.

Gas taxes are a small portion of road costs, and are only for state roads. Cities generally don't receive road subsidies from the state. Cyclists drive on city roads, and city roads are generally paid for with property taxes or local sales taxes (if your city has them). And cyclists cause zero damage to roads, unlike cars or trucks Really, cyclists are getting shafted because they have to pay for so many roads they c…

I'm pretty sure I know more about my area than you do and we do NOT use property taxes to pay for roads here. Property Taxes are used for things like:

* The general fund.

* Grants.

* Costs associated with assessing and collecting taxes.

* Justice Courts.

* Education.

Not maintaining local roads.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#334

Post by innocentoldguy »

matsemann wrote: post #293
innocentoldguy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This of course also ignores that most adult cyclists also own a car. What does owning a car have to do with it? If you own two cars, or a car and a scooter, you still have to pay taxes for both to be on the road, don’t you? EDIT: I forgot to mention, where I live taxes aren’t collected as a “fee for polluting.” They’re to keep roads maintained and improve them. This often includes special bike lanes that bicyclists…

That's my point, though. When I'm on a bike and someone shouts at me to get off the road because I don't pay for it and they do, they are wrong . I pay the same as they do, I just choose to use my bike every day to commute.

But that isn't what you said. You said that people who were complaining that bicyclists don't pay their fair share for the roads are wrong because most bicyclists own a car too. I responded to that argument and not the moved goal post you're presenting here.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#335

Post by matsemann »

nemo44x wrote: post #306
_vertigo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist, I am also trying to get somewhere, and I don't enjoy being on the road with motorists either. Based on your comment, I have to assume we live in different areas. I live in the city, and generally it is better and faster to bike because one can bike almost as fast as a car due to not needing to wait for traffic and there's no need to find parking at the destination. From my POV, the motorists I have to s…

I take the subway when in the city or a taxi if it’s faster. People on bikes get hit all the time and police investigations nearly always find the bike rider at fault. The town I’m in outside the city is not a small town. There’s very little that’s more annoying than a group of spandex clad Tour de France wannabes taking up the entire road so they can cosplay.

> police investigations nearly always find the bike rider at fault.

Source please. Sounds like a confirmation bias on your part.

> There’s very little that’s more annoying than a group of spandex clad Tour de France wannabes taking up the entire road so they can cosplay.

You sound jealous. Get a hobby yourself, perhaps?

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#336

Post by iso1631 »

rexreed wrote: post #288
iso1631 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that tax "funds" things like the police and defense

So auto-related taxes and fees fund policing and defense and general taxes fund roads. Sounds... convoluted. I reiterate that none of this really makes much sense, and I think we're seeing the end result of those policies.

No it doesn't, what's convoluted is this idea that taxes don't go into a general pot. In the US gambling wins are taxed, that money doesn't get spent on gambling related services, it goes into the general pot.

(Of course the idea of there being a "general pot" for a government that backs its own currency is a misnomer in any case)

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#337

Post by dotancohen »

jeroenhd wrote: post #332
dotancohen wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't that 17490 / 300000 is a small number. The issue is that the road wear is not being paid by the entity creating that wear, and is disproportionately being borne by those actually trying to solve climate change problems by driving smaller, electric vehicles. If there is currently not enough taxes being collected to maintain the roads, then start taxing those who do the most damage. That entity can then…

The problem with that is that the heavy electric cars are actually damaging the road more than their ICE counterparts because of their huge batteries. For some countries this isn't much of a problem, just buy a normal car instead if an SUV and you should get the cost difference back, but for others the mileage of current smaller electric cars just isn't practical. We could make exemptions for electric vehicles powere…

  > Tacking road maintenance costs onto other general goods in the form of taxes disproportionately hits people who try to avoid using a car for the environment and the liveability of their city, for example by taking public transport or a bike.
Those general goods will reflect the cost of actually getting them to the store. Why should I subsidize pornography magazines, canned pork, and other items that I don't use? Just have everybody pay their fair share of road wear, or at least as close to it as possible, and let the costs trickle down. If some items, e.g. baby diapers or bread, are deemed to be worthy of subsidy then directly subsidize them.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#338

Post by robertlagrant »

Robotbeat wrote: post #246
robertlagrant wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For whatever reason, capital costs for consumers are penalized with taxes more than incremental operating costs. How so? Is the gas tax lower than the purchase taxes?

Yes, plus personal property tax. If I own the car for 8 years before selling it and the battery is about $10,000 In value and the sales tax rate is 6% or so, the tax I’m paying is already equal to the gas tax I already typically would pay driving a 30mpg the average number of miles per year in a typical state. And some localities have personal property taxes, and that $10,000 battery often puts the car in a higher br…

Well I'd never heard of personal property tax before! So people are taxed for owning things, that they paid tax on when they bought them? I can see how that devalues an electric car vs an ICE alternative.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#339

Post by freemint »

Robotbeat wrote: post #303
asdff wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Penalize all vehicles based on weight squared. People shouldn't be moving to electric cars if they actually are concerned about climate change. They should strive to replace as many trips as possible with bike commuting and letting the car they already own and works fine sit in the garage collecting dust, versus willing a new one into existence from parts extracted from around the earth and perpetuating an a…

Because then you’re effectively subsidizing CO2 emissions by penalizing the significantly lower emissions vehicles.

Why should society be subsidising road damages by penalizing light cars?

It is giving people an incentive to buy larger range electric cars which also need more resources for batteries. Lighter electric cars can also use smaller motors for the same acceleration.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#340

Post by ehnto »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #225
ehnto wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nasty bias you have. Cyclists are clearly also "people trying to get somewhere". I'd argue they're trying harder than you are. I won't defend all cyclists, some of them have bad etiquette for sure. I certainly don't have traffic piled up behind me. But I'd argue they've inconvenienced you far less than your car infrastructure has inconvenienced them. I promise if they had a separated fast bike lane to use, t…

The cyclists in the US I see in a suburban area are almost all doing it for exercise (pretty obvious from the getup), not to get somewhere. In a more downtown area it's obviously different. >dealing with people angry they're late for their next stoplight. Sounds like you have some nasty bias yourself.

> Sounds like you have some nasty bias yourself.

Like most bike commuters I also drive, I know exactly what's waiting for anyone who's decided to be aggressive on their way past, and it's the next stop light. I'll probably see them there, and it'll be super awkward.

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