Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#331

Post by denton-scratch » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #242

makomk wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with that argument is that you haven't justified why it should only cause downward pressure on prices when companies have to increase pay due to unions demanding more cash. The exact same process should drive down prices and the amount executives make all the time, which means that the price will already be near the optimum given a particular level of costs and that increasing the costs will increase that…

Well, I don't think I said it caused downward pressure on prices! So I don't have to explain why that might happen. Obviously, if workers can negotiate more effectively by being unionised, that exerts upward pressure on costs. Those additional costs can be met out of profits (i.e. shareholders pay, and execs get sacked) or "efficiencies" (e.g. automation, reducing headcount). If you can figure out how to make a bette…

Sorry for replying to self! I said:

> In fact unions can be seen as an adjunct to management.

That's arse-over-tit. My view has long been that management's purpose, in a company that makes stuff, is to remove obstacles from production staff. In that respect, they are servants: rather like clerks, or office managers. Managers are an adjunct to production workers, not the other way round.

I don't mean to disparage either clerks or office managers; most of the ones I've worked with were pure gold. But I've never met a useful project manager; and as you get higher in the monkey tree, you meet people who are more difficult/dangerous, and less helpful.

/me retired, had time to reflect on my career. A bit.

I always liked computers as a teen.

I started work in a Big-5 computer company, and gradually moved to smaller companies. Me and big companies wasn't a good match, on reflection. But I can't see what I could have done differently, at the time. Even in the light of what I've learned since.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#332

Post by dcolkitt » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #292

dcolkitt wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Auto factory jobs (which were outsourced) The decline of Detroit UAW auto industry definitely weren't outsourced. It certainly wasn't GM that opened car factories in Japan and Germany. And it certainly wasn't GM shareholders or executives that benefited from the rise of Japanese and German imports. This isn't outsourcing, this is simply a case of American carmakers being outcompeted by better products from Japanese…

1. Both factors matter. Most manufacturing for the American automakers also happens outside of the US. That is outsourcing. People still buy American cars. 2. It does have to do with mobility of capital in that many of these "international" competitors are still reliant on American capital and are owned in no small part by American institutional investors. > This has nothing to do with "mobility of capital", and unle…

> It does have to do with mobility of capital in that many of these "international" competitors are still reliant on American capital and are owned in no small part by American institutional investors.

The Japanese auto industry, like virtually all of postwar Japan, was almost entirely financed by Japan's persistently high domestic savings rate. You don't have to take my word for it, just look at the long and persistently high current account deficit Japan has with the US. Japan is a huge net exporter of capital, not importer, and it has been for 50 years.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#333

Post by SoftTalker » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 6:59 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #155

Spooky23 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Metro NY and upstate regions, there is a supermarket chain called Shoprite that is unionized. Where I live, none of the other chains are union shops. The only visible difference as a consumer is there are less (or no) automated checkout lanes. Prices are no different than anywhere else.

> The only visible difference as a consumer is there are less (or no) automated checkout lanes. ...Really? That's a straight detriment in my book, as a customer. I would generally prefer to support a union shop, but I'm extremely fond of self-checkout—and, in fact, further upstate, Wegman's has introduced a self-scan app that you can use to tally up your total as you shop, and just scan a code at the self-checkout re…

> Wegman's has introduced a self-scan app that you can use to tally up your total as you shop, and just scan a code at the self-checkout register with your phone on the way out to pay.

Kroger did that here a few years ago. They pushed it hard. Got very little uptake. It's still an option, but they aren't shoving it in your face when you walk in. There are just a handful of scanners on a rack by the entrance, and I've never seen anyone using them.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#334

Post by salawat » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 7:00 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #322

salawat wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... So why didn't you push back and hold the manager foreman's feet to the fire for the scheduling if you knew it caused OSHA violations? If you do not push back against management, nothing changes, and unfortunately, to get anything provable in a court of law beyond he said she said... It has to be on paper/in an email. Go on. Text your boss you can't get the job done on his schedule without violating OSHA standards…

Where this comment is missing is how you pay rent after doing this

For heaven sake. You're enabling this type of behavior. Every manager will push and squeeze to get everything out of you they can.

Here's the secret though: It's their ass on the line if it doesn't get done. If they're a middle manager, they now have to go back with hat in hand and tell their higher up they made a mistake. That repeats for however many layers of middle management exist until resources get properly allocated. It's their business that takes the hit if it gets out to client's that project their having built is meat grinding their laborers.

You the end laborer, hold the power in this case. A manager cannot knowingly force you to conduct your work in such a way as your rights to a safe workplace are jeopardized. You have the power to expose it, and make it unequivocably known to your higher ups that these violations are happening. You can report your employer to your local OSHA enforcement arm.

A law on paper but never enforced is no law at all, and a workplace where everyone lets the boss abuse one another is the only outcome if you won't stand up for you, and sometimes, encourage someone else to stand up for themselves. I did it for my people damn it. You need to do it for yourselves and your peers. This is why labor organization is important. Businesses can abuse you because people don't act in concert to the degree the business does.

No work is so important it cannot be done as safely as possible. No one has the right to conspire to put you in harms way. An employer who provably does is not entitled to be an employer in the United States. That is a privilege, not a right.

Fight, damnit! Fight! Or vote with your feet by finding something else to do! If you don't set the bar for people to not work for, and refuse to make their life more difficult by making them accountable for their own malfeasance, you're passing the buck to the next crazy motherf'er who will, and we are in short supply.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#335

Post by wahnfrieden » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #312

wahnfrieden wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pmc and workers aren't allies

How are private military contractors related to Kroger workers, and why are they expected (or not) to be allies in the first place?

pro managerial class

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#336

Post by ghastmaster » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 7:05 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #319

ghastmaster wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a business cannot pay people enough to live, the business should not exist. I'll assume you are talking about full time all year jobs. Each one of the baseline expenses defined above are not nominally set in stone. They are different for every person. I might define baseline food as beans and rice, while others might define it as steak and lobster. The same goes for the other baseline expenses defined above. Thi…

Transacting is one aspect of business - ownership is much more important, and only exists as far as the government enforces it.

Did early humans own the tools they created? Probably. Government limits this in almost all cases. Even the liberty minded founders of the USA created eminent domain which is not limited in which property the state can take, technically. The USA typically is supportive of private ownership, but not the originator. I think ownership exists inherently in humans. As does it's counterpart theft. We have decided that theft is bad and ownership is good over the millennia. It is possible we may change to not value ownership and theft would then have a more positive connotation.

Business cannot exist without two parties transacting. Businesses can exist without ownership. That is if you do not consider a persons labor to be "owned" by them. There does not even have to be capital exchanged. Bartering for labor can and does happen.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#337

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 7:07 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #166

Spooky23 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Metro NY and upstate regions, there is a supermarket chain called Shoprite that is unionized. Where I live, none of the other chains are union shops. The only visible difference as a consumer is there are less (or no) automated checkout lanes. Prices are no different than anywhere else.

In my experience, Aldi/Walmart/Lidl/Costco prices are much lower than Shop Rite. Also, Shop Rites are sort of like franchises, different ones have different owners and management.

I don’t know about Lidl, the the rest aren’t full service grocers either. I’m a big fan of Aldi in particular, but they don’t have a butcher, bakery, prepared food/deli, staffed produce. Awesome store for what they do though. Aldi also pays a premium hourly rate.

Walmart tries to do everything but they suck imo. The produce is garbage, but the dry goods are cheap due to their economy of scale.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#338

Post by wahnfrieden » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

taurath wrote: post #321

_jal wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This will go down on your permanent record..." -- Bezos in helium voice I remember quitting from Krogers bagging groceries when I was a kid. I forget why, but I did give less than 2 weeks notice. Mr. Manager gravely conveyed that if I did this, I'd be barred from working for them again forever. Pretty sure my poker face then was not what it is now, but in any case I did not find that to be anywhere nearly as distres…

Earlier in my life I nearly died driving 50 miles to get into work as a grocery store clerk on no sleep because a manager called me and in no uncertain terms told me if I didn’t come in that day I’d be fired. I was raised to believe that a job is more important than just about anything, so I decided to try to go in as I was out of town. I crashed my car as I fell asleep at the wheel. It shouldn’t take that to get som…

thanks for sharing, I'm glad you survived to learn that lesson

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#339

Post by tablespoon » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 7:34 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #92

jballer wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But did they cross state lines?

Ironically, he didn’t even cross state lines (at least not that night), he was there the night before sleeping over at a friend’s house.

What are you taking about?

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#340

Post by AdrianB1 » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 7:37 PM UTC

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #175

AdrianB1 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a country (Romania) with almost no legal guns, so I am missing some context. I thought that with the USA constitution guns are a right that "shall not be infringed", so what exactly "anti-gun" means: changing the constitution or ignoring it? Most of the news I see, people are trying to ignore it, which is basically ignoring the laws. In this case, Amazon breaking some laws seems to fit well in the picture.

The Constitution is not “the law”, it only restricts what the government can do, not individuals. Guns are a right but only to a limited extent. No right is absolute. The debate right now is how far this right extends.

Thank you for the explanation.