Earlier quoted context omitted.
Meanwhile, random_pop_non-tech_website exploding in traffic wasn't setup to scale despite years actively seeking said popularity through virtually any means and spending top dollar on hosting, and it slows down to crawl. "Why no k8s?", you ask, only to be met with incredulity: "We don't have those skills", says the profiteering web agency. Sure, k8s is hard… Not. Nevermind that it's pretty much the only important par…
That’s clearly not a startup!
Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
331–340 of 558 posts
Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#332I maintain a free, open source, fast paced shooter that really only works with I frequently need to re-provision new servers and close existing ones. I've been doing all this with the help of docker-machine (now deprecated), and a collection of handy bash scripts. While this has worked, it's become more and more fragile and I need something better. For years I've resisted Kubernetes because I keep hearing "premature…
It will be simpler, more straightforward and most likely use less computing resources. It’s also a decades old technique at this point that is extremely battle hardened.
You don’t say it outright but you imply that you are doing this as a single operator. That removes giant swathes of the advantages K8s brings to the table. Further your implication that there are multiple edge clusters is a case that is fairly new to K8s and the best practice would be to run n K8s clusters.
If you are looking for a more managed/turn key option I’m a huge fly.io fan boy.
Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's seems like a very negative take in my opinion. This 'simpler operational tech' would still need to be able to scale, correct? If you think that there is a good and easier way to deploying 10-15 services, all of which can scale, and all of it defined in rather neat code, to be anything but "simple operational tech", then I believe you are confusing "solving a complex problem", with "simplifying the requirements…
> good and easier way to deploying 10-15 services Why are so many micro-services needed? Could the software be deployed in a more concise manner? Not getting into the whole monolith-vs-services arguments. In both cases, complexity of deployment is part of the cost of each option.
Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#334For sure, there is power at the cost of agility! I've seen cases where we started off as simply as possible with no k8's. We built the initial product really quickly using a ton of managed services. Whilst it was great to get us going, once we hit "growth" things just didn't scale. (1) The cost of cloud was getting astronomical for us (and growing with each new deployment) and (2) it was totally inflexible (whether t…
I think the argument from most people advocating against using k8s from the get go isn't so much that you'll never need it, but more that it's better to pay this cost later when you have a demonstrated problem that needs to be solved, even if it's a bit more expensive (and I would bet that the total time expenditure isn't really all that much more moving to k8s later, it's just in one chunk instead of spread over your history).
By deferring the cost of building more complex infrastructure:
- You can use those resources to advance your product (arguably some companies that have hit a wall with PaaS vendors may never have gotten to the point where they outgrew those vendors if they spent more of their time on infrastructure vs. company value) - You'll have a better idea of what you'll need and where your scaling hotspots are going to be if you've already encountered them. Building infrastructure that allows for flexibility in a few key areas is infinitely easier than building infrastructure that can scale in every way imaginable. - You can potentially take advantage of new technologies if you defer the decision to when you need it. It would be silly to assume k8s is the final word. If you wait a few years, things will have evolved and you gain the advantage of using those few years of advancement rather than cementing a choice early on.
Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#335The problem with this sort of argument is that it sets up a straw-man, without describing what you should do instead. Kubernetes could be better - of course - but what better approach is the author recommending to use instead? It would be better if we could use one language on frontend and backend - of course - but what is this one language that works everywhere? It would be better - of course - if there was a SaaS t…
The article explicitly advocates for high-level PaaS tools as an alternative to Kubernetes.
Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#336Doesn't look like the author knows what he is talking about. His point about early stage startup should not use K8S is fine. But the next advice about not using a different language for frontend and backend is wrong. I think the most appropriate advice is to choose a stack which the founding team is most familiar with. If that means RoR then RoR is fine. If it means PHP then PHP is fine too. Another option is to use…
I don't think their advice about not using it in a startup is correct either. You just need to somewhat know what you're doing. I know of such a case, where a single engineer could leverage the helm chart open source community, and set up a scalable infrastructure, with prometheus, grafana, worker nodes that can scale independently of web service, a CI/CD pipeline that can spin up complete stacks with TLS automated t…
Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#337Doesn't look like the author knows what he is talking about. His point about early stage startup should not use K8S is fine. But the next advice about not using a different language for frontend and backend is wrong. I think the most appropriate advice is to choose a stack which the founding team is most familiar with. If that means RoR then RoR is fine. If it means PHP then PHP is fine too. Another option is to use…
Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The biggest learning curve is for the person setting up the initial deployments, services, ingress etc Most other team members may just need to maybe change the image name and kubectl apply to roll things out. This is a huge redflag. It's basically admitting that you expect most later employees to not understand k8s or how its being used. You may think they don't need because it works, but you have to think about w…
Just like how you don't really expect later devs to learn the intricacies of your hand rolled deployment setup. The difference is, kubernetes is pretty standardized and therefore learnable in a repeatable way, unlike the Frankenstein of tooling you might otherwise cobble together.
Sure. Though the standard changes weekly.
Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#339Re: Kubernetes is a red flag signalling premature optimisation
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
Any startup that knows what their product is and are done with PoCs, should be able to deal with the consequence of succeeding, without failing. Scaling is one of those things that should be in place before you need it. In our case, scaling was a main concern.
> In our case, scaling was a main concern. and ... you might be justified in that concern. However... after having been in the web space for 25+ years, it's surprising to me how many people have this as a primary concern ("we gotta scale!") while simultaneously never coming close to having this concern be justified. I'm not saying it should be an either/or situation, but... I've lost count of how many "can it scale?"…
Also, discussions about rewrites to scale up service capacity, but nobody has actually load tested the current solution to know what it can do.