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Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

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Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#331

Post by d0mine »

haswell wrote: post #297
d0mine wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that we shouldn't consider screwdrivers to be demented hammers even If you are a hammer like most in your surroundings. If a game map is small (there is not much time for development before you are destroyed) and/or resource-poor then being Wizard is certainly a disadvantage compared to Necromancer (it is a "disorder", wizards are "demented" from the Necromancer's point of you).

Except humans are not primitive tools, and the brain is not a piece on a game board. Perhaps a concept like CPU/GPU binning would be a bit more helpful to consider, but even then, it reduces one’s entire experience into manufacturing terms. The worst CPUs are thrown in the trash. So are the broken hammers, and eventually the screwdriver misused as a hammer.

You are trying to reduce human mind to one bit: broken/working. Humans have strong general intelligence and therefore are capable of solving many different tasks. There are many different tasks in the world where different characteristics may be useful in addition to pounding nails (though if you are a hammer, it may be hard to imagine) The existence of screwdrivers shouldn't be considered a disorder.

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#332

Post by kragen »

luckydata wrote: post #322
kragen wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus fuck. Spencer RC, Devilbiss DM, Berridge CW (June 2015). "The Cognition-Enhancing Effects of Psychostimulants Involve Direct Action in the Prefrontal Cortex". Biological Psychiatry. 77 (11): 940–950. doi:10.1016/j.biopsych.2014.09.013. PMC 4377121. PMID 25499957. Ilieva IP, Hook CJ, Farah MJ (June 2015). "Prescription Stimulants' Effects on Healthy Inhibitory Control, Working Memory, and Episodic Memory: A Meta…

a quick scan of the papers you linked (top 2 results, I got bored after that) shows that the studies specifically refer to ADHD patients. I'm not sure the links prove the point you're trying to make. Tangentially related, interesting tidbit from Russel Barkley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYq571cycqg TL;DR: stimulants prescribed to children promote normal brain development.

The first of those papers (mostly about a different drug with similar pharmacokinetics) is a review paper mostly about experiments on rats, though it does also include some results on ADHD patients, and the second one is a meta-analysis of 48 experiments, specifically excluding experiments on ADHD patients.

It's not literally false that "the studies specifically refer to ADHD patients", because they do refer to them in order to explain that the results they're reporting are not in ADHD patients—in the first case, primarily; in the second case, at all. But your comment is crafted to create the false implication that their results were limited to ADHD patients. Either that is a knowing lie, or your claim to have scanned the papers is a knowing lie and your false implication is merely reckless disregard for the truth.

— ⁂ —

The first study you said you scanned, Spencer, Devilbiss, and Berridge 2015, is about the effects of amphetamines and methylphenidate in rats and healthy people, and how that relates to their usefulness for treating ADHD:

> A major breakthrough in our understanding of psychostimulant action was the demonstration in 1980 that the cognition-enhancing and behavioral-calming actions of psychostimulants are not unique to ADHD, with similar effects seen in healthy human subjects (11).

> This and subsequent studies unambiguously demonstrate that when used at low and clinically-relevant doses, psychostimulants improve prefrontal cortex (PFC)-dependent behavioral/cognitive processes in human subjects with and without ADHD (11-15).

In the summary, it concludes:

> Low-dose psychostimulants are the first-line treatment for ADHD. At clinically-relevant doses these drugs improve frontostriatal cognitive function in ADHD patients and healthy individuals.

> The procognitive and behavioral calming actions of psychostimulants are in stark contrast to the behaviorally-activating and cognition-impairing effects seen with higher doses.

— ⁂ —

The second study, Ilieva, Hook, and Farah 2015, is titled, "Prescription Stimulants' Effects on Healthy Inhibitory Control, ...A Meta-analysis." Here "healthy" means neurotypical, i.e., not "mentally ill," specifically including ADHD diagnoses as "mentally ill" and excluding them from "healthy". They explain, "Research on children, elderly, criminal, or mentally ill patients was excluded," elaborating, "Twelve studies failed to meet the criteria for eligible participants (mice: n = 1; elderly participants: n = 6; children: n = 2; mentally ill participants: n = 2, including one study on ADHD and one study on cocaine abuse; criminal participants: n = 1)."

— ⁂ —

In short, you are telling baldfaced lies about the studies I'm citing, as easily shown by the most cursory analysis (in the second case, the title of the paper), in order to continue posting vile calumnies against my integrity.

I do not think you should post any more on this site.

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#333

Post by kragen »

luckydata wrote: post #325
kragen wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not completely different or even mostly different. Getting euphoric and agitated happens with doses an order of magnitude higher than therapeutic doses. Low-dose Adderall has been used to help neurotypical people focus for at least a century, though not of course by that name. Your vicious, baseless attack on my integrity has no place here. Withdraw it immediately.

I'm even more convinced now than before that you're in bad faith.

In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31243297 I caught you outright lying about what the relevant studies said, I suppose in hopes that other people wouldn't read them. Your accusations of bad faith are groundless and have no place here. That kind of conduct does not belong on this site.

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#334

Post by chrsig »

kragen wrote: post #332
luckydata wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a quick scan of the papers you linked (top 2 results, I got bored after that) shows that the studies specifically refer to ADHD patients. I'm not sure the links prove the point you're trying to make. Tangentially related, interesting tidbit from Russel Barkley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYq571cycqg TL;DR: stimulants prescribed to children promote normal brain development.

The first of those papers (mostly about a different drug with similar pharmacokinetics) is a review paper mostly about experiments on rats, though it does also include some results on ADHD patients, and the second one is a meta-analysis of 48 experiments, specifically excluding experiments on ADHD patients. It's not literally false that "the studies specifically refer to ADHD patients", because they do refer to them…

Perhaps you should...relax. You and the person you're responding to are having a miscommunication. It happens. No one is making any statement about your integrity.

Also, perhaps you should take a better look at the comment tree. My original request for a citation was levied against the commenter speculating that "this was made up to stop it from getting banned entirely like it is in Asia"

So really, maybe go get some fresh air. It's just a discussion on the internet, it's not worth getting worked up over.

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#335

Post by kragen »

ravi-delia wrote: post #296
kragen wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adderall has been one of the most popular recreational drugs since the 01960s, despite causing multi-organ failure in common recreational doses, which are higher than the therapeutic doses. If it didn't work on neurotypical brains, it wouldn't be popular.

It absolutely has, going by people's subjective ratings, different effects on NT people. That's not to say it doesn't work, there are plenty of explanations. We don't really get how neurotransmitters interact, so it's possible these drugs trip some cascade effect which incidentally treats ADD. More likely, there's a good place to be on the tradeoff curve and different symptoms below and above it. Perhaps large enough…

I think that's an excellent explanation.

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#336

Post by kragen »

chrsig wrote: post #334
kragen wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first of those papers (mostly about a different drug with similar pharmacokinetics) is a review paper mostly about experiments on rats, though it does also include some results on ADHD patients, and the second one is a meta-analysis of 48 experiments, specifically excluding experiments on ADHD patients. It's not literally false that "the studies specifically refer to ADHD patients", because they do refer to them…

Perhaps you should...relax. You and the person you're responding to are having a miscommunication. It happens. No one is making any statement about your integrity. Also, perhaps you should take a better look at the comment tree. My original request for a citation was levied against the commenter speculating that "this was made up to stop it from getting banned entirely like it is in Asia" So really, maybe go get some…

> No one is making any statement about your integrity.

That is not correct; in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31231494 luckydata said, "I think you're purposefully misrepresenting...", and in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31241664 they said, "I'm even more convinced now than before that you're in bad faith." Decent people considering commenting on here should not have to worry that they'll be subjected to such character assassination.

(And neither should I.)

Thank you for clarifying your comment. I think the Spencer et al. paper shows that it wasn't made up to stop Adderall from getting banned entirely; rather, it was a belief that was common among researchers in the field until 40 years ago, based on clinical observation. Also, Adderall is not banned entirely in Asia; for example, last I heard, it's legal in Thailand.

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#337

Post by pornel »

thread_id wrote: post #270

"...There are bigger downsides to ADD, like the weeks when I can't focus on work, or when I get distracted by some awesome new thing and don't do the things I should be doing, or how I lost interest in projects and don't always finish them, blah blah blah. I am not going to complain about any of that, it is just part of being me and I like who I am pretty well. Everyone has problems and mine are less severe than many…

Everyone can be sad, but that's not depression. Similarly, everyone can be forgetful or distracted, but that's not ADHD.

Your "don't beat yourself up" is just as unhelpful as telling depressed people to "cheer up".

ADHD is a neurological disorder physically affecting the brain. It causes executive dysfunction that people can't think themselves out of.

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#338

Post by firecall »

photojosh wrote: post #202
cbfrench wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> High five, fellow PhD dropout. :( High five back to you. No shame in that game. I’m mostly just glad to have learned that my issues weren’t just because I was “lazy” but because my brain just doesn’t work that way. I learned something about myself, even if it cost me a few years to learn it! And I wish you all the best. When those coping mechanisms run out, they run out hard . My wife is an attorney, and one of her…

> When those coping mechanisms run out, they run out hard Oh, don't I know it. Have switched career paths a few times because of it. About 4-5 years to ride the wave up before the crash. Thankful for MY partner... because she's an absolute harbour in the storm. All the executive function I lack, and then more to spare. Otherwise I'd probably be homeless, imprisoned or dead. Think I am finally dealing with it properly…

Same thing for me!

After a stint back in corporate management land, I had a full on nervous breakdown that almost destroyed me and my marriage.

I had one of the most enviable jobs in my field. It was a dream in my city.

I'm still not fully recovered, what ever that means, and never will be the same again really!

I guard my mental health like the Crown Jewels these days!

Which in itself isn't easy!

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#339

Post by girvo »

photojosh wrote: post #152
girvo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and people don't tend to talk about it as one does a medical condition While I basically entirely agree with your comment, my partner (who is an optometrist here in Australia) would often point out to me that myopia is a big risk factor for retinal degeneration and detachment, open angle glaucoma, and cataracts at a young age. So while we definitely shouldn't treat mild myopia (like I, and likely you have) as some…

Fascinating. Seems to me that it would be a comorbidity with a common cause though, rather than the myopia being the causative factor? My (somewhat loosely informed) intuition suggests to me that in the same way that not spending enough time exposing the eye to light outdoors increases the severity of myopia, it would likely be causative in those other degenerations. Use it or lose it! Not that I know anyone who spen…

So I just asked my partner, and what she explained was myopia is basically caused by/a symptom of axial elongation of the eye, which is also what can cause the bigger diseases I spoke about initially! Ortho-K/myopia control as a kid/young adult can help fix/arrest the continued development of this, though thats now well outside what I understand of the topic haha

Re: Mental illness, attention deficit disorder, and suffering

#340

Post by girvo »

refurb wrote: post #243
chrsig wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should we just accommodate people who hear voices? We should do a better job than we do now.

No, should medicate them because most people don’t want to hear voices.

That depends on your cultural filter.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/comment-when-hearing-voi...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

(Excuse the google link, its a direct PDF file download annoyingly)

> Be aware that it is common for the experiences of Aboriginal people (such as seeing spirits or hearing voices of deceased loved ones) to be misdiagnosed or mislabelled as mental illness when they are not in fact ill. Fear of misdiagnosis can be a strong barrier to help-seeking for Aboriginal people. For these reasons, you should take great care not to simply assume that the person is developing a mental illness or suffering a mental health crisis.

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