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Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

businessinsider.com

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Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#331

Post by kadoban »

neilwilson wrote: post #215
kadoban wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then Russia can keep their gas and have even lower income of cash (which they need to pay debts, by the way).

Why do they need to 'pay debts'? Russia has just had its foreign reserves frozen. Those are debts too, which the West has repudiated. Why shouldn't Russia do the same in reverse? Countries export solely to gain imports if they have any sense. If there are no imports to be had - due to sanctions - then there is no need to export. Far better, from Russia's point of view, that the oil is left in the ground, and the work…

They _want_ to pay their debts, to preserve better borrowing terms in the future and to not look bad. If you research at all you'll see that they're actively trying to pay their debts to avoid default.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#332

Post by unmole »

cout wrote: post #80
unmole wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Soviet Union was a reliable energy supplier to (West) Germany even at the height of the Cold War. Ostpolitik was the dominant mode of thinking across party lines. The West has never had any qualms about buying oil and gas from the worst regimes in the world. This outrage over buying from Russia while turning a blind eye to Arab monarchies seems rather perfomative.

What do you mean by "performative"?

I mean the "How can you buy oil and gas from a murderous dictator?! He bombs innocent people!" style virtue signalling.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#333

Post by kadoban »

maratc wrote: post #220
kadoban wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then Russia can keep their gas and have even lower income of cash (which they need to pay debts, by the way).

> then Russia can keep their gas I guess the answer to that would be "and Germany can keep their cash and maybe have to burn it to heat homes or generate electricity"? The war we're seeing (the economic war) is a point of mini-singularity, where a lot of we know to be true about the world is invalid. Such as an assumption that a state having debts will actually pay them.

Except they're actively trying to pay them, so apparently it is true.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#334

Post by ohgodplsno »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #226
ohgodplsno wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Germany as a whole I cannot speak, but it is an extremely common thing, yes, whether they know it or not. * Greenpeace Germany has a gas division. They've now split it off and officially only own 5 shares (while being headquartered in the exact same building, by the exact same Greenpeace members): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Planet_Energy * Companies like Total have made use of their enormous war chest to…

I've bought gas from various "green" energy suppliers over the years. Generally, they need to offer it for people that need both, even if their main aim is expanding solar or wind power. Some, like this example, go a little further and try to mix in hydrogen or biogas to reduce carbon output, or offset the carbon in some way, but even when they didn't, it was still greener than the alternatives on the market and a pr…

Don't get me wrong: I am all for the presence of renewables in our energy mix. Solar at the individual house level is a great option, and making use of it in other spaces that are currently useless would be great. (Lining the top of parking lots to provide shade and electricity is a great option). Wind turbines are a bit more debatable, but as it stands, still provides a good option for some intermittent but good enough power.

But know that your mindless antinuclearism is going to be our downfall. Our only options for baseload generation as it stands are nuclear and gas. And by protesting nuclear, you are giving oil companies a large avenue to keep fucking us all over. Rejecting nuclear at all costs right now in an attempt to get some renewable only future is madness. It is only leading us further down the hole of global warming. The only sabotage happening here is organisations like greenpeace literally committing acts of terrorism against nuclear plants. No-one wants to go nuclear+gas.

Your mention of hydrogen makes you even more of a useful idiot for oil companies. Hydrogen does NOT work. We get 27% efficiency when it comes to storing it and using it as power. P2G2P is 50% at best. And while STEPs are a great solution for storage, we've used most of it. Unless you're looking to drown Bavaria to make a big lake.

Build a ton of nuclear plants. Move as many countries as possible away from gas and coal. Once that's done, I'm more than happy for all of us to think of alternatives for nuclear.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#335

Post by mhermher »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #254
Barrera wrote: post #225

> Russian gas accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports in 2021 and 40% of its gas imports in the first quarter of 2022, Reuters reported. The country has pledged to end the use of Russian gas by 2024, the Habeck said in a March 25 press release. Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia. The answer seems to be "one step at a ti…

Let's be fair: this was a massive, strategic aim of the Russian state. Germany didn't randomly fall into this situation, there has been decades of influence, bribery, and espionage in Germany to develop that dependency. Kids may need to be reminded that Germany has only been reunified for 32 years and Berlin was divided from the USSR controlled East Germany by a physical wall. Russia is is so motivated to expand its…

There is no need for influence, bribery, or espionage. It was simply the cheapest, most reliable source of energy. Russian gas "won" on the market. Regardless of what route Germany takes from here, it's almost certain they'll be paying more in energy costs.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#336

Post by mhermher »

Etherlord87 wrote: post #47
throwaway4good wrote: post #18

I hope I one day get to visit a Russian nationalized McDonalds; just to fully grasp what deglobalization means ...

Currently it's probably the same stuff as the original McDonalds. Eventually the quality will deteriorate due to lack of supervision - unless Russians will do an equal job in supervising, which I doubt.

Why do you doubt it?

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#337

Post by yywwbbn »

newaccount74 wrote: post #271
jonhohle wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the previous six years, it struck me as completely bizarre that there was any pushback for bringing manufacturing or energy production back locally. It doesn’t have to be nationalist, it’s just adding redundancy in case your trading partner realizes they have over powered leverage. No business wants to concede to a vendor that they are irreplaceable. Edit: Likewise, watching Germany dismantle its nuclear infra…

Energy politics in the public discourse was often dominated by environmental concerns, and there wasn't a singular focus on CO2 as we have now. Gas has been a popular choice, because it is a lot cleaner than coal / light oil / wood from a local pollution perspective. It burns cleanly, so switching to gas heating significantly reduces pollution in cities. Nuclear energy is NOT clean, because it has the huge unsolved p…

And Chernobyl killed magnitude s less people in total than the number that dies directly or indirectly due to fossil furl emissions.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#338

Post by Melatonic »

Barrera wrote: post #225

> Russian gas accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports in 2021 and 40% of its gas imports in the first quarter of 2022, Reuters reported. The country has pledged to end the use of Russian gas by 2024, the Habeck said in a March 25 press release. Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia. The answer seems to be "one step at a ti…

I think the main key difference here, however, is that it is not the state (the US government) deciding to offshore any of this manufacturing. It is some rich fat cat American CEO who wanted a bigger paycheck.

Thankfully for some very key industries we still have onshore manufacturing and that is increasing in modern times.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#339

Post by yywwbbn »

neilwilson wrote: post #215
kadoban wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then Russia can keep their gas and have even lower income of cash (which they need to pay debts, by the way).

Why do they need to 'pay debts'? Russia has just had its foreign reserves frozen. Those are debts too, which the West has repudiated. Why shouldn't Russia do the same in reverse? Countries export solely to gain imports if they have any sense. If there are no imports to be had - due to sanctions - then there is no need to export. Far better, from Russia's point of view, that the oil is left in the ground, and the work…

If those workers are fine with a substantial fail in their QoL. It’s gonna be most painful for the oligarchs and people in their environment who are used to consuming massive amounts of foreign goods.

Btw even the USSR which was generally much more autarkic couldn’t survive without foreign currency for energy exports. What makes you think modern Russia could? Also it was illegal for workers to leave Russia back then, unlike now (so assuming there are countries willing to accept them they might be more likely to choose that over ‘being redirected to work in the war industry’.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#340

Post by [deleted] »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #334
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've bought gas from various "green" energy suppliers over the years. Generally, they need to offer it for people that need both, even if their main aim is expanding solar or wind power. Some, like this example, go a little further and try to mix in hydrogen or biogas to reduce carbon output, or offset the carbon in some way, but even when they didn't, it was still greener than the alternatives on the market and a pr…

Don't get me wrong: I am all for the presence of renewables in our energy mix. Solar at the individual house level is a great option, and making use of it in other spaces that are currently useless would be great. (Lining the top of parking lots to provide shade and electricity is a great option). Wind turbines are a bit more debatable, but as it stands, still provides a good option for some intermittent but good eno…

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