Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

ns.nl

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

331–340 of 365 posts

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#331

Post by iggldiggl »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #315
HowTheStoryEnds wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the section a train is on is automatically and mechanically secured by the lights on the section ahead and afterwards. (2 sections if you count the yellow warning lights)

Unless they are operating a dynamic block system like the channel tunnel lines and other high speed lines across Europe. Anything that runs over 125mph (or has to mix with traffic which does) isn't using block signalling.

True dynamic block ("moving block") still isn't that widespread, at least as far main line railways are concerned. High-speed lines are still by far and large using fixed block signalling with conventional train detection (track circuits or axle counters), it's just that the movement authority is given via some sort of cab signalling.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#332

Post by tuukkah »

CannisterFlux wrote: post #176

Sounds similar to a problem that happened a couple of weeks ago in Madrid, although that was not the whole network it pretty much shut down the trains for the day. That was an IT failure too. https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4973632/0/graves-retrasos-e... (in Spanish)

Wow, talk about a single point of failure when an issue in the systems of one station can stop all but one train line. Interestingly, it seems to be a station where tracks from six directions meet so a backup mode of trains simply passing through might be impossible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_Chamart%C3%ADn_railway_...

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#333

Post by avar »

jaclaz wrote: post #329
avar wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So in 99% of cases there is no way to "extract" money from cards without [...] The card has the customer's IBAN, which you can use along with their ID and have them sign a contract to allow you to deduct the purchase via direct debit, the system is routinely used for point of sale, but is mostly known for regular recurring billing. It's too much of a hassle and deviation from standard business practices for shops t…

>The card has the customer's IBAN No, not really, most cards have an "own" number, not connected to the IBAN (though a few do have it), it depends on the bank or organization issuing the card and on the specific type of card, I would say (without any proof of it) that the ratio is maybe 80% without IBAN and 20% with IBAN. And pre-paid cards are also very common, without a connection you have no way to know if the mon…

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure IBAN is universal (or almost so) for all EU bank accounts at this point. Thus consumer debit cards have in IBAN associated with them.

Now, it may not be the fully formatted ISO IBAN number, but some shorter variant you need to prefix with e.g. the country's IBAN prefix. E.g. in The Netherlands all Debit cards have the full number, but Iceland uses a suffixed system, those are just two systems I'm personally familiar with.

I quickly searched for what Italy's largest bank is, and found pictures of their debit cards, which seem to have 4x4 numeric digit on the front. This page then seems to explain how to convert it to IBAN: https://help.finecobank.com/it/il-conto-fineco/conto-corrent...

In any case, I was just using IBAN as a shorthand for "a unique account number suitable for a direct debit contract".

If Italy really uses proprietary bank account numbering system it's probably still true that people there can pay e.g. their electricity via direct debit, which will eventually lead back to a contract where they said such-and-such can withdraw money from such-and-such account.

The store would then print out that contract template to have on hand.

Except that they wouldn't, because you're not going to train your point-of-sale people for the 10 minutes per year the phone system is fully down, or have accounting deal with the mountain of resulting paperwork and manual one-off payment processing.

But that doesn't mean that offline payments are literally impossible if you have neither card nor credit card, it's just become so exceptional that people have forgotten how, even to the point of claiming it can't be done :)

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#334

Post by iggldiggl »

Symbiote wrote: post #228
gridspy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's likely the same power fault could occur in a single train in other circumstances. When an electric train cannot access the grid reliably it would become far more dangerous - no more regenerating brakes, no reliable acceleration ... Better to force the operators to fix the boom arm / whatever other cause of power glitches with fault codes like this. Even if they false-trip when there are grid level outages.

No, it was considered a design fault with these particular trains, and fixed soon afterwards. Being unable to accelerate or unable to use regenerative braking is not in any way a safety problem. Either situation can happen at any time. (Electric trains have banks of resistors used to dump the unwanted kinetic energy when it's not possible to return it to the power supply, and this was the normal method for decades be…

> Electric trains have banks of resistors used to dump the unwanted kinetic energy when it's not possible to return it to the power supply

On AC-electrified railways (especially those with their own independent power supply network like Germany/Austria/Switzerland), resistors are actually rather uncommon on stock capable of regenerative braking, because the OHLE not being able to accept regenerated power is a relatively rare occurrence. Though of course in that case the conventional friction brakes are of course fully rated to bring the train to halt, only with a bit more wear and tear.

DC-electrified railways are a different matter – transmission losses are higher, power supply sections are smaller and substations often not capable of returning any surplus power back into higher network layers of the power supply systems, so the OHLE/third rail not being able to accept the power generated by regenerative braking happens much more frequently and so trains continue carrying braking resistors as a fallback system.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#335

Post by jaclaz »

avar wrote: post #333
jaclaz wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The card has the customer's IBAN No, not really, most cards have an "own" number, not connected to the IBAN (though a few do have it), it depends on the bank or organization issuing the card and on the specific type of card, I would say (without any proof of it) that the ratio is maybe 80% without IBAN and 20% with IBAN. And pre-paid cards are also very common, without a connection you have no way to know if the mon…

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure IBAN is universal (or almost so) for all EU bank accounts at this point. Thus consumer debit cards have in IBAN associated with them. Now, it may not be the fully formatted ISO IBAN number, but some shorter variant you need to prefix with e.g. the country's IBAN prefix. E.g. in The Netherlands all Debit cards have the full number, but Iceland uses a suffixed system, those are…

Yes, I am sure, at least in Italy.

Some Bancomat/Pagobancomat ones (but again not all of them) are connected to the IBAN (amd they sport both the IBAN and the name of the holder).

Many Bancomat/Pagobancomat are connected to Mastercard or Visa (or Maestro) debit cards and they have "their own" number, unrelated to the IBAN (and they don't even have the name of the holder).

Some have the name of the holder, but not the IBAN.

As said it depends on the issuer, I have an account at a bank that issues the Bancomat card with the IBAN number (and my name on it and you have to wait for the card by mail for replacement), have another two accounts in two different banks where you can go to the teller, and he/she fishes a new card from a drawer and "couples" it to your account, the card is "blank", no name, nor IBAN, just the card number.

Fineco is I believe third or fourth bank in size, the two largest ones should be Unicredit (which casually is the one from which I have the IBAN connected card) and Intesa san Paolo (which is one of the two I have the "unconnected" card from).

My current experience is with some 30 payments daily, or 200 per week.

I would say that (from memory and very roughly) what happens here:

American Express or other "real" credit card: 2-10

Other embossed numbers credit or debit cards: 25-30

Bancomat/PagoBancomat (some with IBAN, many without): 90-100

Not embossed number Visa/Mastercard (as said sometimes they are the same as the Bancomat ones): 40-50

Prepaid or similar (not embossed numbers): 20-50

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#337

Post by anticensor »

incompatible wrote: post #82
quartz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the notice: > It affected the system that generates up-to-date schedules for trains and staff. ...boy oh boy did trying to look into what NS uses for crew scheduling ever send me down a rabbit hole. I don't know if the systems have changed but while poking around online I found this[1] doc about the Netherlands' timetable revamp around 2006 and it talks about the complexity of TURNI-- their on-the-fly crew sched…

If they are scheduling days in advance, then why would a failure of the scheduling system cause an instant outage?

Why not fall back to old-school time and distance interval running?

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#338

Post by Aperocky »

vages wrote: post #124
supernova87a wrote: post #108

While having algorithms and computers dictating every aspect of train movements, crew scheduling, resource allocation is efficient and in a sense optimal, I think there's something compelling to be said about having a system that can survive with human-rememberable patterns when such an optimizer fails. That it can fall back on (or have at the core) simple patterns that people can still operate without algorithmic in…

I work within the train system of a European country (with ticketing, so I’m on the top and not the bottom of things). From my experience with station and onboard crew, I am very certain that the schedules and patterns are still very much human rememberable, at least collectively: People have to show up for work, drive the train and many other things. My guess is that the failure is related to signalling or some othe…

Commercial Flights can still be flown manually, without many automated sensing system.

But if they don't work you don't take off, it's simply not worth the risk.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#339

Post by anticensor »

traceroute66 wrote: post #272
tazjin wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most credit or debit cards support offline transactions, so a shop can keep a battery powered terminal that reconciles when it comes online. Imprinters don't exist in Europe to my knowledge - the first time I saw one was on a visit to NYC a few years ago and I thought they were pranking me.

> Most credit or debit cards support offline transactions, so a shop can keep a battery powered terminal that reconciles when it comes online. Almost.... Its been a while since I have been involved in POS payments, but IIRC there is a clear protocol which goes something like this: 1. If the card machine is online and working, use that 2. If the card machine is not working *AND* the business is willing to take on the…

4. If the card machine is not working and your business requires automated immediate finalisation of payment, refuse all cards altogether

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#340

Post by miggol »

quartz wrote: post #62
miggol wrote: post #14

My curiosity is killing me as to what exactly went wrong. And as someone living in The Netherlands I'm also kind of mad at the apparent fragility of this huge chunk of our infrastructure. If this had happened on a work day, it would have been a real national emergency, rather than just a huge national inconvenience. I would appreciate one of those post-outage "what happened" reports like with the AWS and Facebook out…

From the notice: > It affected the system that generates up-to-date schedules for trains and staff. ...boy oh boy did trying to look into what NS uses for crew scheduling ever send me down a rabbit hole. I don't know if the systems have changed but while poking around online I found this[1] doc about the Netherlands' timetable revamp around 2006 and it talks about the complexity of TURNI-- their on-the-fly crew sched…

Thank you for your informative reply! These are such good reads
Post reply on HN