World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate • Hacker News Board

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#331

Post by sweetheart » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

croes wrote: post #232

sweetheart wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then if that point is ceded, would you agree then that we ought to only eat the fewest animal products necessary to get those nutrients in safe levels? People always argue against veganism by saying “Ah well, can’t get all my B12 from plants so I guess eating this McDonalds quarter pounder is justified!”. Why not remove everything else that is an animal product lacking the nutrients you need, and only eat what…

>Okay, then if that point is ceded, would you agree then that we ought to only eat the fewest animal products necessary to get those nutrients in safe levels? Yes But we also need to reduce the numbers of our pets. Especially free strolling cats are a massive hit to the ecosystem.

Agreed

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#332

Post by pibechorro » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:20 PM UTC

4ggr0 wrote: post #325

atdrummond wrote: post #218

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

I totally get where you are coming from, but I want to discuss one thing you mentioned. You decided to stop eating octopus, because they're very smart animals. Which is understandable to me. But why do you decide what animals to eat, based on how intelligent they seem to us? If we turn that argument around, it's okay to eat an animal if its 'dumb'. Why is that so? To show my perspective, I am becoming more vegetarian…

I eat all animals, octopus is delicious. What I do practice is compassion and respect for when I do, going out of my way to ensure it was done so in as an ethical and sustainable way as possible. Much of my protein these days I catch myself.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#333

Post by sweetheart » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:21 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #136

sweetheart wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t think individuals collective buying habits influence macro trends in supply?

I think when it comes to meat its more of a tragedy of the commons issue, and the most effective way to get something done is to encourage my representatives to support legislation that helps these animals versus holding my breath and waiting for the world to wake up and choose logic. Keep in mind this is a society that have many who, when shown that smoking causes lung cancer, continues to smoke. After COVID and see…

But we can do both: personally abstain to inform the market of changing preferences, and lobby the government to introduce new laws and reorganize subsidies.

It’s not one or the other. There is no reason to wait to stop eating animals unnecessarily

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#334

Post by buddhistdude » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:23 PM UTC

4ggr0 wrote: post #325

atdrummond wrote: post #218

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

I totally get where you are coming from, but I want to discuss one thing you mentioned. You decided to stop eating octopus, because they're very smart animals. Which is understandable to me. But why do you decide what animals to eat, based on how intelligent they seem to us? If we turn that argument around, it's okay to eat an animal if its 'dumb'. Why is that so? To show my perspective, I am becoming more vegetarian…

Maybe it’s based on the assumption that more complex organisms are more sensitive and thus the suffering that is experienced is bigger.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#335

Post by jablala » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:25 PM UTC

pibechorro wrote: post #332

4ggr0 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get where you are coming from, but I want to discuss one thing you mentioned. You decided to stop eating octopus, because they're very smart animals. Which is understandable to me. But why do you decide what animals to eat, based on how intelligent they seem to us? If we turn that argument around, it's okay to eat an animal if its 'dumb'. Why is that so? To show my perspective, I am becoming more vegetarian…

I eat all animals, octopus is delicious. What I do practice is compassion and respect for when I do, going out of my way to ensure it was done so in as an ethical and sustainable way as possible. Much of my protein these days I catch myself.

Seems like kind of an oxymoron to have a living being killed and subsequently eaten, then claim compassion and respect.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#336

Post by sweetheart » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:25 PM UTC

dundarious wrote: post #157

bmitc wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Human beings don’t require animal products to thrive, period As much as I am in favor of reducing meat consumption of all kinds, is this an accepted fact?

For some measure of "accepted fact", yes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ > It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Eating quite minimal animal products is the norm in societies with…

Actually cows do produce some levels of B12 in their bodies, but we still supplement them with the raw ingredients for that B12 so at the end of the day, basically every person living in the developed world is getting their B12 from supplements, one way or another.

Also, it’s not only the American Dietetic Association that believes veganism is healthy for all stages of, it’s the opinion of all the largest ones around the world!

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#337

Post by sweetheart » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:26 PM UTC

bastawhiz wrote: post #154

sweetheart wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but what’s stopping you from holding that belief then?

Apathy? Lack of motivation to take personal action?

You should try it. I started out without giving two shits about animals. Now it’s the thing I feel most strongly about, and it has given my life much deeper meaning and direction.

Maybe you’ll feel the same!

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#338

Post by buddhistdude » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:27 PM UTC

jablala wrote: post #335

pibechorro wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I eat all animals, octopus is delicious. What I do practice is compassion and respect for when I do, going out of my way to ensure it was done so in as an ethical and sustainable way as possible. Much of my protein these days I catch myself.

Seems like kind of an oxymoron to have a living being killed and subsequently eaten, then claim compassion and respect.

So you hate your food?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#339

Post by sweetheart » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

shanusmagnus wrote: post #320

kuhewa wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't totally get equating greater intelligence with greater capacity to suffer.

Greater intelligence allows greater introspection, prediction, rumination; allows one to build a model of self and environment not possible at lower intelligence. The suffering that is possible when you can anticipate your death, or imagine a hopeless future, turns otherwise neutral situations into hells.

This is a double edged sword: an animal that is incapable of imagining a hopeless future may also be incapable of understanding that certain terrors it faces are temporary, and thus may live in anguish much more as it has a poorer mental model of its own situation.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#340

Post by sweetheart » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

pibechorro wrote: post #332

4ggr0 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get where you are coming from, but I want to discuss one thing you mentioned. You decided to stop eating octopus, because they're very smart animals. Which is understandable to me. But why do you decide what animals to eat, based on how intelligent they seem to us? If we turn that argument around, it's okay to eat an animal if its 'dumb'. Why is that so? To show my perspective, I am becoming more vegetarian…

I eat all animals, octopus is delicious. What I do practice is compassion and respect for when I do, going out of my way to ensure it was done so in as an ethical and sustainable way as possible. Much of my protein these days I catch myself.

An unnecessary killing is never respectful. You can attach whatever rituals and formalities to the process to ease your conscience, but at the end of the day if you kill a sentient animal for momentary pleasure, you don’t respect it in the slightest.