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America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

economist.com

331–340 of 433 posts

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of what? I'm not making any claims. We've got the internet at our fingertips. I'd hope progressing beyond speculation would be valued

The entire thread is speculation, doesn't seem very useful to ask one side for evidence without asking the other. If all you care about is people evidencing their claims, you probably should've asked at the first assertion, not the 2nd/3rd.

This was the one I was most interested in learning more about.

I'm not part of this debate. I'm just curious

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#332
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the best option at the time would have been to not lock down at all and just carry on as usual: lockdowns appear to have had almost no effect on Covid deaths ( https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature... )

> keep the country from collapsing Unless you have odd ideas about healthcare and hospitals, I think you overlooked a key part of OP’s question. Have you forgotten the horror that went down in NYC, Italy, etc? Hospitals were overwhelmed, patients piled up all over the place, the dead packed into refrigerated trucks, staff working endless hours, equipment shortages… and you suggest not locking down would have been the…

No post body was provided.

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#333
post #60

I know a few upper-middle class small business owners (all non-retail sectors) whose businesses weren't substantially affected by the pandemic, but who basically got a free handout as part of the program. Two mentioned how they were initially hesitant to apply for money, but then worried that if they didn't, their business could take a downturn after it was too late. Then as long as they spent the money on payroll (w…

I got a free handout as an employee without my job being affected by the pandemic at all. Missing chips currently do affect my job a bit, but still not as much as people working (or currently not working) in production. We just raise prices too, but we needed to send people home in the meantime.

Don't know how much the chip scarcity is related to Covid or if it is just useless coin miners.

edit: Not located in the US though.

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt, but that was what the British did. I made only a statement of fact. Also, as you can see from the other replies, there were other considerations at the time. Compensation to the slave owners is morally repugnant, and yet the alternative might have also had morally repugnant consequences. In any case, that is what they did.

No I agree, and I think it made sense for you to reply with that honestly I might have had you not, but I think it is fair to say that it’s at least morally counter intuitive

> I think it is fair to say that it’s at least morally counter intuitive

Only in that as a society, we seem to have decided (or come to through emergent behavior) that viewing sweeping socioeconomic changes and what might actually result from them with anything other than a cursory surface analysis is too much effort. :/

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#336

Don't worry, that money went to job creators and it will definitely trickle down to everyone else!

Don't worry government lockdowns of business were for the greater good there will be no side effects of destroying the economy to save lives!!!

[deleted]

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#337
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bad to keep countering complaints about 2008 as if the balance sheet is all that matters. The ethical complaints aren't about the money, but about the incentives and disincentives for certain behaviour, and the constant preferential treatment for a certain class of people above others. The cited reason for buying the bank debt instead of the home owner debt was "moral hazard", which actually applies to them both…

>The cited reason for buying the bank debt instead of the home owner debt was "moral hazard" The moral hazard was the smallest of the problems. The complexity of how to do so seems like the much bigger issue. What does "buying homeowner debt" even mean when much of that debt has been securitized?

Paying mortgages, or a percentage thereof, for people? If it's considered an interest free loan on which the people would pay back in their taxes or on any sale of the home initiated by the owner or as inheritance fees, possibly with a maximum delay before payments must be attempted, then that seems fairly straightforward to me.

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is bad to keep citing 2008 money as if it were a handout. Much of the money was paid back with interest, and the government MADE money on those loans. Look up the “maiden lane” loans for an example.

The government makes money when they give poor people money, too, and not only that, but other folks make money too because poor folks tend to spend their money. This is without having to keep track and collect loans.

No it doesn’t. The government doesn’t get back the principal + interest like they did from the banks.

You’re considering secondary effects, which would have also happened with the money loaned to the banks.

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#339
post #249

Anything other than direct cash transfers to individual humans is likely to have this effect. Institutions are simply always going to be able to navigate and take advantage of complex government programs better than real human beings. UBI or stfu. Time to try some trickle up economics. Also, for the love of god, let's stop prioritizing saving "jobs" that may or may not be necessary for civilization and start prioriti…

Please don't post ideological flamewar comments to HN. They make threads predictable, tedious, and usually nasty. We're trying for something different here: thoughtful, curious conversation. To the extent possible on the public internet. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

How is explaining that the problem is inherent to this particular way of doing business a flame war?

Re: America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cash to the rich

#340
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In hindsight, the government shouldn't have precipitated the conditions that justified these "loans" in the first place. The whole putative point of this (reducing covid deaths) was obviously ineffective and/or a red herring. Of course, if you think the actual point was liquidation of Kulaks, it was quite effective at that.

> The whole putative point of this (reducing covid deaths) was obviously ineffective Yesterday's conspiracy theory is tomorrow's news[1] [1] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-h...

AFAIK the main purpose first and foremost was to prevent the health system from collapsing. Everything else was secondary. Take the spike out of the incidence rate to spread hospital admissions out over time.

It would not affect how many got infected, not even deaths directly - the only way to reduce deaths would be if in the meantime better treatments could be developed, more people getting vaccinated, and enough hospital (especially ICU) capacity for the severe cases being available. So death prevention was an indirect effect and not the direct target.

For some strange reason, I rarely see this main target being mentioned in discussions, especially not of the "deniers", for example when they point to "it's my own problem the government should not tell me what to do", neglecting that having to be hospitalized does make it everybody else's problem too.

The question is not the death rate, even if it was exactly the same (which I highly doubt, given that we achieved a significant vaccination rate demonstrably reducing severe cases, and better treatments), the question that the COVID measures should be evaluated against is if we indeed managed out spread out the wave(s) over time. In the end almost everybody will have been in contact with the virus, preventing that never was the goal, only to spread it out over time.

That said, I'm also curious how someone could claim "Lockdowns had little or no impact on COVID-19 deaths". Do they really claim with even more stressed ICUs and more severe cases because of less vaccinations (which only became available later) there would have been the same number of deaths? That sounds more than a bit strange to me.

That said, I'm not at all opposed to critical review of the measures. Many did seem a bit off, for example continuing to limit outdoor movement when it had already been shown that the main problem was prolonged closed-room indoor exposure.

I also see curious patterns when I look at the incidence map of Germany. Right now the southern East German states, the ones with the most opposition to COVID measures, are much lighter (much lower incidence rate) -- https://www.zeit.de/wissen/aktuelle-corona-zahlen-karte-deut... (at the time of posting this link those mentioned states are significantly lighter than the entire rest of the country, for the second time, at other times they were/are deeper red)

Just a few weeks ago they were the deep red ones. The newspapers only reported when those regions had worse numbers, now for the second time their numbers are much better than that of the rest of Germany for the second time and again not a single mention of it in the media. I don't want them to interpret it, I think that remains open without good study, I'm only talking about merely even just mentioning the fact, but nothing. That is quite some selective attention to only the negatives.

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