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Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

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Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never worked in large consumer goods retail, but smaller retail outlets, food, clothing, etc. do not commonly operate like this. Most don’t have the storage to pre-buy even two months worth of merchandise. In food, purveyors won’t hesitate to ask for cash up front if you’ve been late a couple of times or have a bit of an outstanding balance. The places you describe sound like they act as both distributors and re…

I think it's certainly a matter of leverage, and could also be why smaller retailers struggle to survive. For suppliers, getting involved with one of the big retailers is a calculated risk. The retailers work their suppliers against one another, and if you don't play along, you vanish from the shelves. I worked with one of those suppliers long ago. It's interesting that food is an exception, perhaps because it's peri…

Food isn't an exception— it's just the example I used because I'm most familiar with it. Restaurant purveyors are particularly strict because a restaurant with a 1% or 2% profit margin is considered pretty successful, and that's why 60% of restaurants fail in the first year, and 80% fail by the fifth. But my non-restaurant experience suggests any retailer not required to own their inventory is the exception.

I personally have been a chef and a manager in retail food businesses from movie theaters to coffee shops. I have a friend who owns an upscale boutique that sells many types of products, another that sells products through her salon, several more that own vintage stores (admittedly entirely different supply chain,) a friend who discussed his well-researched, in-depth business plans to open a gun accessories retail shop, another who sells wood crafts and other products direct to customers, a couple full-time artists who sell their art either through galleries or from the walls of businesses, and several food purveyors that only sell to businesses for resale.

In that entire pool, only the artists selling their art through galleries and coffee shop walls, and one of the vintage shops that does consignment sales, differ from the norm of retailers owning their inventory. Some wholesalers or manufacturers will afford well-behaved businesses lines of credit— but that's not the same thing as not owning your inventory. You can't just return it if you don't sell it. Once you sign that delivery sheet, it's pretty much yours.

I've heard of retailers selling new products on manufacturer consignment. I wouldn't be surprised if some specific industries operate like that as a norm. Maybe phone vendors? Maybe software/computer game stores, possibly, because the content is license-based and the material cost is relatively small compared to the price? (Amusingly, as a long-time software developer and someone with a lot of experience in the retail end of business, I have no idea how retail software sales work.) But there's no way Nordstrom is going to order a skid of this spring's collection from major brands and designers and be like "sorry, we decided to give the floor space to other items, so either mark these down to bargain rack prices or we're not paying for them." If that were the way it worked, nobody would sell them anything.

I get the sense that the original commenter just extrapolated based their understanding of business practices that weren't as common as they thought.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#332
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn’t Amazon care if they tanked the seller because sellers would drop out of the program?

Why would sellers drop out of the program? Where would they go? Amazon raised the prices to match what the seller was getting outside of Amazon.

They'd switch to Fulfilled by Amazon, where the seller can set their own prices.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#333
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Co-mingling” doesn’t somehow make counterfeiting easier - Amazon uses chaotic storage such that more than one sku-receipt will never go into the same pickface (co-mingling isn’t talking about mixing the same SKUs together, it’s mixing all SKUs together but tracking them by location). Amazon can still locate all products of a particular SKU received from vendor X on a particular date, or know what receipt your sale w…

Amazon may be able to determine the source of stickerless comingled inventory like this, but stickerless comingled inventory is treated as interchangeable on the fulfillment side. So if I order an item "Sold by ACME, Fufilled by Amazon" I may receive a copy that was shipped in by "Cyberdyne". Amazon's tracking will internally tell them I got an item that was sent in by Cyberdyne, but they don't tell me about that. Th…

Absolutely true - but it's the sales strategy that is 'co-mingled'.

I was just responding to OP's point that implied that this is a side-effect of how the inventory is physically stored, rather than a decision on sales strategy by Amazon.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I have a list I go down the more critical a component is. Amazon if it doesn’t really matter. Then newegg/Best Buy. Then b+h.

I run my list in the opposite order. Prices are generally just as good and I prefer to support those I trust first. Actually before I get to amazon I will search for small specialized vendors that might be more expensive but the staff actually knows something about their product, and so the web recommendations are good (they will of course recommend what they sell over an equally good brand they don't, but they are s…

Problem is return policy. Amazon I feel comfortable ordering anything because if it’s not great I return it. Small vendors not so much.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is a huge bureaucracy. Some parts of it (FBA, AWS) have done wonders for democratising access to cutting edge business tools. Other parts of it are rent-seeking.

Excuse me, what makes you think AWS isn't fundamentally rent seeking? The brainwave of AWS was figuring out how to meter basic compute tasks. AWS = An implementation toolkit for cobbling together and paying rent on an ESB.

From my understanding (I may be wrong), rent-seeking in the economic sense is not literally about receiving payment to loan another party an asset (e.g. car rental), but about engaging in zero-sum or negative-sum economic activity.

For example, patent troll companies would be rent-seeking because they don't create any value for other participants in the economy (except for perhaps lawyers!). Amazon's primary retail business could also be seen as rent-seeking to an extent because their massive market share essentially forces businesses to sell through their platform and give them a 10-15% cut of the sale.

AWS, on the other hand, is (or at least was) a genuinely innovative solution to people's problems. It gave small organisations access to supercomputers at affordable rates, in a non-monopolistic way, and in turn created much more wealth for the broader economy than Amazon themselves extracted through AWS fees.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#336
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So one thing to keep in mind is there is a lot of “leakage” out of genuine products manufacturer in China and SE Asia. Workers will “divert” product from factories (or almost) finished product and sell on the side. I’ve heard this is a big issue with clothing manufacturers. Of course determining whether it’s actually counterfeit or just diverted product is likely impossible at the point of purchase.

Right, and I would assume that a good fraction of those were products that didn't qualify as "good enough" at the factory ?

Still, for value conscious people it’s fine. My dad was really into shortwave radio and other stuff in the 80s.

He’d buy “grey market” gear from stores in NYC that were legit, but intended for Latin America or other markets. Sometimes the fit and finish would be interior or connectors would be lower quality, but the price was right and an 80% product is better than nothing.

If I know I’m buying a “Rolox”, that’s one thing. If you sell and price a Rolex that is not, that’s a problem.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#337
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be like if Costco instead of buying 1000 legos, just stocked legos in it's warehouse, then paid Lego company everytime a single unit sold. For some reason I was under the impression that this is exactly how it works at some physical retailers? Can someone confirm that this is not the case? Does Costco/Walmart/CVS/etc. eat the cost if the items don’t sell?

It is exactly how it works for physical retailers. In most cases, they even delay payment for a few months to account for returns and the cost of returning unsold products. Costco, to my knowledge, is actually one of the more strict retailers with IIRC 6 month delay between a product sale and the vendor being played. Mostly due to their generous return policy. I don't know of any large retailer that eats the cost of…

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Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and own the transactions I would strike that from the description. You never really own the transaction when it comes to Amazon. FBA customers are not your customers. You cannot communicate with them and have the kind of relationship you would have with your customers if you "owned" the transaction. Case in point: Amazon can shut down your FBA account next Monday and you'd have no way to reach "your" customers unle…

There are zero sellers I want a relationship with on Amazon. Almost all spam and annoyance I get by email is somebody I bought one thing for who wants a relationship with me. The vast majority of my shopping is transactional, and I want it that way. If I want a relationship with a seller, I can take care of making one The most frightening part of the Senate bills are that they require Apple, et al to let people commu…

> There are zero sellers I want a relationship with on Amazon.

I understand. If we are talking about the 350 FBA sellers listing the same avocado peeler they all get from the same factory in China and private label under 350 different brands. Yeah. Could not agree more.

However, there are categories and products where you probably do want a relationship with the seller. Health and beauty products comes to mind as a potentially obvious one. For example, if there are recalls or any important notices pertaining to the products you bought, you would be well served to be on their email list. In addition to this, it is common practice to offer customers discounts for recurring business. This benefits everyone, the buyer gets the same product for less and the seller creates a subscription-based cashflow stream. Everyone wins.

If you look at it from the perspective of the typical mercenary FBA seller who took a $1,000 course to learn how to sell on Amazon, yeah, again, could not agree more. However, there are tons of sellers who honestly want to build a solid, reputable, caring family business that delivers good products. Most of these people work very hard --much harder than they did when they had a 9 to 5 job-- and it can take years before they turn enough of a profit to pay themselves a decent salary. I would caution anyone from seeing all FBA sellers through the same lens, that would not be an accurate assessment.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and own the transactions I would strike that from the description. You never really own the transaction when it comes to Amazon. FBA customers are not your customers. You cannot communicate with them and have the kind of relationship you would have with your customers if you "owned" the transaction. Case in point: Amazon can shut down your FBA account next Monday and you'd have no way to reach "your" customers unle…

That’s why you do FBM. More work on your part. But Amazon doesn’t control anything other than taking their cut. You list it, package it, ship it, initiate refunds and customer questions, etc..

FBM has its own set of nightmare-scenario issues. At the end of the day, Amazon can shut you down any day of the week, at any time. If you've done FBM long enough and have the kind of product that benefits from recurring business, you could survive post-shutdown by reaching directly to those who bought from you in the past. It can work. Sure.

I know a bunch of people who unplugged from the mothership starting by switching to FBM. The truth of the matter is that Amazon has such market dominance that being out there on your own might mean an 80% reduction in business. The exception is if you have very special products that are sole-source and well protected. In that case you could recover nicely to a decent run rate and make money.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#340
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies care whether a court of law could find them to be a monopoly (in jurisdictions where that is a problem). Somewhat generalized, they also care about the court of public opinion. Both kinds of courts rely heavily on interpretation and on words. They don't ascertain objective truths. Things revealed in proceedings in a court of law can often be used against you in the court of public opinion, too.

What you're saying doesn't disprove my point. Obviously they care about external perceptions, but this doesn't mean they think being a monopoly is a problem. In fact they want to achieve this result without the public realizing it.

Yes. I didn't mean to disprove that point.
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