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Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

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Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#331

Post by potta_coffee »

nostromo wrote: post #87
whatshisface wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how inducing demand doesn't count as success. That means people want to use the road, doesn't it? It's almost like saying that releasing new software doesn't do anything to help users, because it increases the demand for software by the virtue of its own utility more than it reduces the demand for software by keeping people busy.

Yeah, they're shifting the goal posts. Here in city (Seattle) most people drive because transit tends to be spotty and slow for most people. So, what's the solution? Make driving worse of course. Speedbumps everywhere . Change 4-lane roads to 2-lanes. Remove parking. Lower speed limits to absurd levels. Make through streets dead ends. Transit still mostly sucks, but now driving sucks too. Success! I love transit and…

I've always hated driving around Seattle, but a few years ago I was bumming around for a few days in my Miata and it was a whole different experience. Having a tiny car that can go anywhere and park anywhere is awesome.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#332

Post by massysett »

azylman wrote: post #45
dragontamer wrote: post #5

I'm not surprised. I've taken this road before during the 2017 Eclipse. Its a path that connects major parts of the country together, but there are no alternative roads to take if this one road closes. Other locations have "Backup" highways to lighten the load or otherwise take up the slack if the main road closes. Not so here. I've been told that Virginia once had plans to build additional highways / alternative roa…

No comments on emergency situations, but wanted to call out one thing: > You need additional highways (aka: additional offramps) to truly scale day-to-day traffic Additional highways are at-best a stop-gap for day-to-day traffic, never a solution, due to induced demand [1]. You really need large-scale investments in public transportation for this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#Effect_in_trans...

The idea that highways are “never” a solution due to induced demand is an utter falsehood. It may well be that the expense of sufficient highway capacity is, in some cases, more than society is willing to bear. But that does not mean that highway construction is “never” a solution.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#333

Post by Jxl180 »

globalise83 wrote: post #290
Jxl180 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have these bags made for urine or vomit with a gel in it that will congealed the contents. I was stranded on a closed highway and had to pee so bad. Never again.

Why didn't you just take a pee by the side of the road?

I was considering it (very lucky the traffic cleared), but it was a major highway at midnight that was closed due to flooding ahead, and emergency vehicles were speeding down the shoulder fairly frequently. I didn’t consider it safe for me to leave the vehicle.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#334

Post by Jxl180 »

neom wrote: post #279
Jxl180 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have these bags made for urine or vomit with a gel in it that will congealed the contents. I was stranded on a closed highway and had to pee so bad. Never again.

Never heard of these before, after skimming amazon reviews on a few products, looks like most folks like "Travel John" and "OUMEE" brand the best. Seems useful!

Yes, Travel John is what’s in my glove box.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#335

Post by _moof »

throw_nbvc1234 wrote: post #309
emptybottle wrote: post #73

A good reminder to keep some warm blankets/coats/gloves/hats in your trunk, along with some non-perishable snacks and a first-aid kit & flashlight. Water is harder to store in the winter since it will freeze and burst containers if full, but snow can be melted given a container to put it in. Also a good to refuel often. I try treat 1/2 a tank as empty and stop accordingly. On longer trips it lines up well with bathro…

How does this logic work with electric cars; just cut the range in half?

Electric cars are apparently much better in these situations than gas-powered cars, because you can keep the heat on for hours and hours without using up much charge (or creating any CO). Don't personally know if that's true but it's what I've read.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#336

Post by IdoRA »

Spooky23 wrote: post #288
whatshisface wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how inducing demand doesn't count as success. That means people want to use the road, doesn't it? It's almost like saying that releasing new software doesn't do anything to help users, because it increases the demand for software by the virtue of its own utility more than it reduces the demand for software by keeping people busy.

The problem is that demand has other consequences. I drive 2-3 times a year from NY to South Carolina or Florida for years, always timing crossing through DC around 5AM. Traffic 15-20 years ago coming into DC extended down to Potomac Mills. When I passed though in 2019 it extended almost 60 miles, well past Fredericksburg! More demand drives more sprawl that drives more demand for roads. Eventually metastasizes into…

Part of the reason there is unusually high traffic in that location is the confluence of two things: one is that local traffic doesn’t have a great alternative to 95 over the Rappahannock river (the local Rt. 17/1 interchange is famously awful) so you take 95, and the other is that there is a large amount of truck traffic between Rt. 17 and 95. Basically over the span of the Stafford/F’burg area 95 sees an additional ~30k cars/day. There are road improvements in progress but they are too little, too late.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#337

Post by andrewflnr »

azylman wrote: post #76
andrewflnr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why public transit doesn't have exactly the same induced demand problem as highways. If there's enough people to fill up new highways, they'll also fill up the public transit... Unless the plan is to make public transit miserable enough that only outside with no better options will use it, in which case it seems like it's all going according to plan already.

The way that public transit scales to meet higher demand is different than roads. Whereas roads require more lanes, public transit such as trains can scale by either adding more train cars to existing trains or adding more frequent service. More frequent service, in addition to improving throughput, also helps everyone else using the system by making it more convenient. And, if it "induces" people to move from roads…

I don't buy the lower travel time thing, not unless your trains or whatever are running every five minutes. In practice public transit has always at least doubled my travel time. Waiting at stops (a) introduces substantial latency that (b) is unpredictable, forcing me to pad my travel times further. I mainly use it to avoid parking at the destination.

Mostly DC metro rail and a bit of LA buses, FWIW.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#338

Post by massysett »

animal_spirits wrote: post #63
whatshisface wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how inducing demand doesn't count as success. That means people want to use the road, doesn't it? It's almost like saying that releasing new software doesn't do anything to help users, because it increases the demand for software by the virtue of its own utility more than it reduces the demand for software by keeping people busy.

The less you invest in public transportation, the more people will drive. The more people that drive, the slower traffic gets. If you just widen the road, all you do is increase the amount of cars that drive. If people can't get to where they are going via public transportation, then they are going to drive instead, increasing congestion. Would recommend watching this video on it: https://youtu.be/RQY6WGOoYis

Yes, if you increase the amount of road and more cars get people to where they are going, the result is increased economic activity. The result also is increased well-being because more people are getting to places where they wish to go - destinations that are improving their lives. This is a success.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#339

Post by MikeKusold »

zepearl wrote: post #186
emptybottle wrote: post #73

A good reminder to keep some warm blankets/coats/gloves/hats in your trunk, along with some non-perishable snacks and a first-aid kit & flashlight. Water is harder to store in the winter since it will freeze and burst containers if full, but snow can be melted given a container to put it in. Also a good to refuel often. I try treat 1/2 a tank as empty and stop accordingly. On longer trips it lines up well with bathro…

Btw. I replaced some years ago the blanket with a sleeping bag (warmer + can be folded/compressed better therefore needs less space when stored/hidden in the trunk), and the normal flashlight with another one which is magnetic on one side (for example so that it won't move while mount snow chains).

A sleeping bag that is stored compressed loses it's insulation properties: https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/how-to-store-a-sleep...

I keep a Harbor Freight moving blanket in my trunk. It's thick for insulation, and also cheap in case you need to protect your seats after a muddy activity. I also wouldn't feel torn up about laying it down on ice if I need some traction.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#340

Post by massysett »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #136
whatshisface wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how inducing demand doesn't count as success. That means people want to use the road, doesn't it? It's almost like saying that releasing new software doesn't do anything to help users, because it increases the demand for software by the virtue of its own utility more than it reduces the demand for software by keeping people busy.

Road usage isn’t necessarily success. For a political region, economic activity is usually considered a success. If by building a larger road through your city, you induce people to live outside of your city instead of in it, then you’ve added costs while reducing your economic activity, while creating more total wasted hours in traffic in the process. Are the trade offs worth it? Sometimes! But induced traffic deman…

The workers have spread out because they prefer spread-out housing. They prefer larger homes on larger lots. Roads allow people to live where they wish in the housing they want. People are willing to accept longer commutes so they have the housing they want. This is a success.
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