Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#331

Post by unicornmama » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 10:30 PM UTC

johnisgood wrote: post #253

unicornmama wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn’t have. CoinBros don’t understand that IOUs (debt) have existed across human history and will likely continue to exist. And that most economic activity is done through debt. Once a set of “trusted” actors can issue debt, you have monetary expansion. In Crypto, we have Coinbase, Binance and Tether - the defacto crypto banks. They have the ability to expand the crypto money supply and promise IOUs multiples i…

Maybe we should focus on Bisq[1], a decentralized bitcoin exchange network. Solves the centralization that is Coinbase, Binance, and so forth. [1] https://bisq.network/

Coinbase, Binance, Tether are a problem to decentralization. They are far more centralized than the fiat alternative. Imagine if the stock exchanges, brokerages, payment processor, private and commercial banks were all controlled by one or two companies.

The success of these centralized exchanges ought to give anyone pause with regards to how truly decentralization crypto really is.

Regardless, defi exchange won’t stop monetary expansion. People with a currency will want to gain a return on those currencies, since they don’t do anything productive sitting in a wallet. Therefore, banks would emerge with deposit accounts who would then lend out loans in excess of deposits. I don’t see a defi way of doing that which would replace institutional banking, because individuals and algorithms are not equipped or financed to analyze the lending risks, fraud, take legal actions, etc..

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#332

Post by vanusa » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 10:34 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #329

vanusa wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think that China banning bitcoin means they no longer use those dirty coal power plants? You may want to examine the logical flaw behind this line of questioning.

Indeed - from my understanding those power plants, the cheap energy, was cheap and available, in excess, because they're located in areas with little development or use for the energy otherwise.

Or even on a more basic level - it's like you see someone who's left the water running in their bathtub, and the water is flowing over the sides, through the floorboards and down the stairs, and they come back with:

"You don't think we were using lots of water in this house before I decided to take a bath today?"

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#333

Post by scottiebarnes » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 10:41 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #317

scottiebarnes wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that make central banking and fiat?

Money. All money that enters into circulation via fractional reserve lending is backed by demand for that same money, and enforced by the legal system. The repayment of the issuing loan. That’s where it’s value comes from. Unlike bitcoin fiat operates on a pull model - demand driven. It doesn’t start by creating supply and having people shill it.

You might need to review your monetary history.

Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken.

Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC, a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#334

Post by exolymph » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 10:44 PM UTC

geertj wrote: post #93

sktrdie wrote: post #7

With a climate crisis the last thing we needed was to make the most effective energy consumption system ever constructed. The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. No other system works so efficiently towards such goal. What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun. Since we only…

> What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. It’s only unstoppable within the game theoretic model of crypto itself, not within the larger societal context. Once Bitcoin power consumption enters the common discourse, my guess is that politicians will step in and simply outlaw PoW systems. There is no real downside for politicians. The average voter hasn’t yet invested their life savings into…

This gets into First Amendment tangles.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#335

Post by landemva » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 10:45 PM UTC

adflux wrote: post #311

landemva wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have tried the other way of enforcing money. That route of using military force is well understood. Is it better?

You think crypto will make the military unnecessary? Let's see how good you are at protecting your wallet keys with a gun to your head...

Since you opened the whatabout game, have you looked at setting up time locked multi-sig?

We do need a military to enforce our borders from illegal invaders.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#336

Post by imtringued » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 10:46 PM UTC

thathndude wrote: post #55

sktrdie wrote: post #7

With a climate crisis the last thing we needed was to make the most effective energy consumption system ever constructed. The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. No other system works so efficiently towards such goal. What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun. Since we only…

I have a son who is just about 10 years old, and he’s getting to the age where he’s beginning to realize how irrational our world is. We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it. He continues to probe “why“ and all I can say is, essentially, because people are greedy and unmotivated gen…

Just think about it. The lay man definition of rent seeking is making a profit without putting any effort (i.e. letting someone else carry the burden of earning the profit). Who doesn't want to earn a profit from doing absolutely nothing?

All you need to do is tax the rent seeking and it goes away. The reason why that hasn't been done is that those who would be impacted have good connections with elected politicians. The most humble example is a homeowner who is involved in local politics at the expense of the renter.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#337

Post by landemva » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 10:51 PM UTC

cuteboy19 wrote: post #319

landemva wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do want to learn how this works with defi, look at DAI and those loans which are based on overcollateralization and incentives for people to hunt for and liquidate others who don't have enough collateralization. 2008 was caused by starting with undercollateralized loans enabled in part by fake rating agency ratings, and failure of regulators to regulate. That system failed and the backstop FDIC can only write…

The stablecoin tether is a great example of how cryptocurrencies do not solve this problem. Tether claims to have a 1:1 dollar backing for its token and yet investigation after investigation found absolutely nothing backing their coins. Tether is the most popular stablecoin out there and has a "market cap" of 78 billion [0]. This proves that whatever issues the current banking system has, cryptocurrency has them much…

Not sure how that proves CEFI is good. If you like tether you can use it. I don't.

USDP appears to be the most sound, with USDC after that. You may use any of those or none of those or make your own. You are free to choose. Your body, your choice.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#338

Post by imtringued » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 10:59 PM UTC

frutiger wrote: post #144

thathndude wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a son who is just about 10 years old, and he’s getting to the age where he’s beginning to realize how irrational our world is. We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it. He continues to probe “why“ and all I can say is, essentially, because people are greedy and unmotivated gen…

> and unwilling to sacrifice a modicum for others I agree with your sentiment but I have to disagree with that phrase. The vast majority* of people of people pay quite a lot of money in taxes, which ostensibly** only exist to help others. (*) I know the billionaires have their wealth as unrealized gains; I chose my words carefully (**) I know we all disagree on how that revenue should be spent, but the purpose of tax…

>(*) I know we all disagree on how that revenue should be spent, but the purpose of taxation is all the same

The purpose of income tax is to avoid taxing land. You're basically paying taxes twice. Once to the government and again to the owner of the land who is making a profit off the services your government has provided via income taxes.

Also, almost all welfare systems are designed to make poverty sustainable, which is why simply getting rid of them solves nothing, they are just a symptom of an unequal society that wants to keep it that way. Getting people back to work is a more effective way to reduce welfare than cutting welfare spending.

E.g. farmers get paid by welfare recipients, cutting welfare may end up costing farmers a job that is absolutely necessary to society so farm subsidies are increased to maintain food security. If people get a job they still need to eat, so getting rid of the farmer and all the other people that are getting paid via the welfare recipient is nonsense.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#339

Post by imtringued » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 11:00 PM UTC

mistrial9 wrote: post #197

thathndude wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a son who is just about 10 years old, and he’s getting to the age where he’s beginning to realize how irrational our world is. We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it. He continues to probe “why“ and all I can say is, essentially, because people are greedy and unmotivated gen…

you are speaking in a fictional "we" .. the wealthiest economies are built on pure selfish action, and grew like ivy in the garden in the last 500 years of expansion. Meanwhile, plenty of other cultures teach their children to compete with others based on language, "tribal" affiliation, other reasons.. You are trying to explain half of a world-view, and your ten year old easily finds the dissonance in that. source: a…

Singapore and Hongkong are not very selfish. They have public land ownership for example.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#340

Post by landemva » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 11:03 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #37

mwattsun wrote: post #25

The counter argument is that Bitcoin is a battery [1] so that if you live in a place like Iceland with plentiful energy, so much that even exporting it as aluminum leaves extra, then you can turn it into Bitcoin and export it that way. But most Bitcoin mining is not that. I feel like Joni Mitchell in the Big Yellow Taxi: "They paved paradise and put up a parking lot" [2] Why are we allowing this to happen? (Well, at…

If you use energy to process aluminium at the end you have aluminium. If you use energy to move bits in a computer at the end you have heat and the result of a calculation. If that calculation was just to proof that you did the calculation, well, that doesn't sound very efficient to me but that's just my opinion. What I'm pretty sure is that it's not a battery.

There is a physical and energy cost to assay gold. Same for btc.