Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation • Hacker News Board

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#331

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:31 AM UTC

throwawaycities wrote: post #309

dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

> I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. The answer to the question of “are we better of than we were in 19xx” is somewhat subjective. Take your points: cars are faster/safer/more comfortable/more fuel efficient and houses are bigger and better. Ok so cars and houses are better today than 1970, but how does that relate to us? 1970 Average salary/median house cost/median…

I have a circa 1970 car, and a modern car. The 1970 car is very cheaply built, and is mechanically simple. The quality, complexity, and sheer number of parts of a modern car has increased enormously. Much of that is due to regulation, most every aspect of a car is heavily regulated today. None of this comes for free.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#332

Post by BiteCode_dev » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:31 AM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

You can't eat a smartphone, you can't sleep in an internet connection, you can't do your nursing job through a computer.

Formal education is more expensive. A balanced diet is harder to get, and more expensive. Housing is more expensive near your work. But gas as well if you live far from it.

Today's people debt is higher, and you can't easily work one job, raise a family, and afford education plus buy a home.

It was more common in the 70'.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#333

Post by Shish2k » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:32 AM UTC

ergocoder wrote: post #147

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #20

We had an all-hands meeting recently where we got to submit anonymous questions. One of the questions was 'with inflation rising at 6%, will the company reconsider their 'standard' 2% raise?' The lady answering looks dead in the camera and goes 'Honestly? No' and goes on to talk about how we're reasonably competitive with the local market. Hey, credit where credit is due, at least she was a refreshingly straight shoo…

Google HR answered this question in a company-wide forum. It is mostly the market (e.g. the other company pay high, so we do too). The living cost doesn't really matter. I appreciate the honesty though.

Facebook HR also got the same question (with the same answer) in the company-wide forum this week. Did I miss some big news story that’s causing this to be on everybody’s mind recently?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#334

Post by simonh » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:32 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #123

simonh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re taking a lot of flak for this so I’ll try and back you up a bit. Not all workers are equivalent, and not all roles that seem the same even in the same team, actually are. Let’s say we have a team of 10 people, each with slightly different experience and skills. One of them finds another job with higher pay and asks for it to be matched. What do you do? It’s quite possible this other role actually matches their…

You're starting from the false assumption that everyone on the team is paid the same. It's not like everyone performs at the same level or gets the same pay in almost any team I've seen. If someone gets a job offer, you should consider it a new data point. Some teams don't aim to retain top talent and if that's the case absolutely encourage them to move on. But if you want a high-performing team, you need to pay top…

> You're starting from the false assumption that everyone on the team is paid the same.

It doesn’t matter. Even if they are different, one person getting a raise changes the relative dynamic. Maybe I was being paid more than this team member and now we’re the same, and maybe I still think I’m worth more. It elevates the basis of comparison.

Also, to expand on my post, it creates the impression in the team that the way to get a raise is to get a competing offer. It says that person was being under paid. Maybe that means you are too? It’s just bad all round.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#335

Post by bigodbiel » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:33 AM UTC

Obligatory “Always has been” meme. That is one of the major profitability cornerstones. And obviously inflation always hits harder low profit margin goods (which usually make up >40% of low-middle income budget).

Inflation hurts the poor, almost always, exception those with fixed interest rates debt burden.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#336

Post by rocgf » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

nickpp wrote: post #295

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

Things with massive government involvement and heavily regulated like are incredibly more expensive: health care, housing and education. Meanwhile, things provided by the free market have become incredibly less expensive and more powerful: technology, communication, entertainment. Nothing to do with your rich vs poor class wars.

Gonna leave out housing and education, but for healthcare, you are painfully incorrect. European countries has vastly more regulated healthcare and yet pay about an order of magnitude less for it.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#337

Post by dan-robertson » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

efaref wrote: post #311

dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

Internet connections cost poor people nothing in 1970 because they weren't necessary and could happily live their lives without one. The real item we're looking at here is *communication*, which was cheap: the stamp you needed to send in the form for your taxes cost a few cents. You could get away with using payphones for the few phone calls you absolutely needed to make. In 2021, internet connections and cellphones…

An internet connected smartphone is not equivalent to the postal service (plus a pay phone or landline I guess). It may be that you use a computer or something else for the things that most people use smartphones for, wand so don’t realise how much they cover.

You also didn’t mention having to go to the library (distance + fuel/car/travel costs + more time) for information, finding jobs from newspaper advertisements or word of mouth.

But the claim I was disagreeing with is that most Americans are worse off now than in the 70s and the description “most Americans” does not match the sort of very poor people whom you describe. So I feel this comment is only partially relevant

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#338

Post by me_me_me » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

passerby1 wrote: post #288

hvidgaard wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good is new tech if you cannot afford to buy a house or a new'ish car for the minimum wage, even if you live frugal and save?

Are metaverse gonna replace lack of owning a house (and travel) soon? /s

Don't even jest, I heard something similar told at work without the /s part.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#339

Post by Shish2k » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:35 AM UTC

camillomiller wrote: post #221

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #20

We had an all-hands meeting recently where we got to submit anonymous questions. One of the questions was 'with inflation rising at 6%, will the company reconsider their 'standard' 2% raise?' The lady answering looks dead in the camera and goes 'Honestly? No' and goes on to talk about how we're reasonably competitive with the local market. Hey, credit where credit is due, at least she was a refreshingly straight shoo…

What I don’t get is this: this person is also an employee who would benefit from that raise ratio. So why is she feeling like her job is to defend the competitiveness of the company in front of other coworkers? The incentives are completely messed up in corporate

> So why is she feeling like her job is to defend the competitiveness of the company in front of other coworkers?

Because that is literally HR’s job description?

(If you’re looking for a group similar to an HR department, but flipped so that their job description is “defend the workers in front of the company”, that’s a union)

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#340

Post by sigmaprimus » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:35 AM UTC

ricardobayes wrote: post #312

hvidgaard wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good is new tech if you cannot afford to buy a house or a new'ish car for the minimum wage, even if you live frugal and save?

I saaw that happening in Budapest. Every young person has a new iPhone and wearing new sneakers, but living with parents.

yeah and most of those parents have been refinancing their homes to support their spoiled children. That is going to end real soon and many of those kids are going to witness their parents lose their homes and become impoverished due to their lazy yet extravagant lifestyles.