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The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

theintercept.com

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Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#331

Post by stjohnswarts »

user3939382 wrote: post #270
literallyaduck wrote: post #165

Don't like it? Organizations like the EFF have been working to stop overreach: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/01/eff-fincen-stop-pushin... You can help financially, and contact each of your representatives and senators and request they act to stop this end run around the constitution.

I used to be a big EFF supporter until I learned they take millions in donations from the same organizations they’re supposed to be watching. Best case scenario it’s a massive conflict of interest, it’s a big problem for me that they find it to be ok.

That's a mighty big claim. Do you have similar scale supportive references?

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#332

Post by stjohnswarts »

ukd1 wrote: post #192
nostromo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: "Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

But, nothing is being searched or seized here; it seems like people gave up their personal data, ignored or didn't read a ToS, and companies are selling it - not being forced to give it up. I don't like it, but does it mean it's illegal?

The USA definitely needs to pass a 'GDPR on steroids' law here to get the bored government agencies off our backs.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#333

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

wongarsu wrote: post #13
AlexandrB wrote: post #9

This is not a new take, but I think "the west" is effectively building their own version of China's social credit. It's just distributed among a range of private companies and accessed via subpoena or contract. The fact that the government doesn't operate most of it directly is largely irrelevant to those negatively affected by it and in some ways makes the situation worse (who do you even contact to correct inaccura…

Being able to correct inaccurate information is an often underappreciated but important part of the GDPR. It's also probably the biggest motivation why you have a right to ask any company what data they have stored about you: so you can spot mistakes in the data of rating agencies. The other use cases are more of a nice bonus.

While i completely agree that the right to correct data is an underappreciated aspect, the biggest motivation is the fundamental right to your own personal data. It motivates the more detailed ones like the right to know who processes your personal data, for what purpose, which data they have, and to correct that data. Not to forget the right to be informed and asked for consent. The "why" of these rights is not found in the robber barons wish to improve the quality of their data swamps. It is found in the wish of the european people to preserve their freedom in the digital age against surveillance capitalism and/or totalitarian governments. I can only hope our brothers and sisters worldwide will one day understand that and demand such a fundamental right as well.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#334

Post by raxxorrax »

dmead wrote: post #269
literallyaduck wrote: post #165

Don't like it? Organizations like the EFF have been working to stop overreach: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/01/eff-fincen-stop-pushin... You can help financially, and contact each of your representatives and senators and request they act to stop this end run around the constitution.

Is this over reach? Seems like it would be good for the treasury to go after tax dodgers and money launderers.

Destroying confidentiality of data on the net is a greater cost than getting small time tax evaders. The brunt of tax evasion is legal and fully a legislative issue.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#335

Post by tcmart14 »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #323
Jensson wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Fourth Amendment is a law, and it's reasonable to say that purchasing what is (arguably) the company's data is still tantamount to a search of our "effects". Got any precedents for this? All examples given in this thread was about the government forcing companies to hand over data, not companies just plain selling it to the government. These companies are already selling this data to other companies, like credi…

I don't. My point is just that the Supreme Court can set a precedent, so it's possible that if the case were brought to them they might decide that it's covered under the Fourth Amendment (or something similar) without needing additional legislation.

I think this could win with a supreme court with judges who have a looser interpretation of the constitution, which right now is not the supreme court we have. The majority of the justices right now have a stricter interpretation and would not see government buying data as "search and seizure."

The better solution would be to have laws legislated. However, unfortunately, there is so much gridlock because congress members are just chasing after Ws for their respective parties and minimizing Ls.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#336

Post by shapefrog »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #328
oh_sigh wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can the government use my ex-wife's autobiography detailing the crimes she saw me commit in order to help investigate me?

Because search is the scope of our discussion, the answer is that the government can read your wife's book for the same reasons they can read your book.

Is one suggesting not detailing our crimes in any recorded format and making it public if we do not want said recordings to be part of a government investigation?

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#337

Post by robbedpeter »

jakecopp wrote: post #283
user3939382 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a big EFF supporter until I learned they take millions in donations from the same organizations they’re supposed to be watching. Best case scenario it’s a massive conflict of interest, it’s a big problem for me that they find it to be ok.

I hadn't heard this before, could you provide a source or examples?

https://donations.vipulnaik.com/donee.php?donee=Electronic+F...

Nothing looks particularly nefarious.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#338

Post by tzs »

jkhdigital wrote: post #276
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are warrants necessary? I thought a warrant was a legal way to compel compliance. If the company who owns the data wants to sell it then that's that. It either shouldn't be collected or if it is then the sale should be prohibited.

If I hire a hitman who murders you, I will be guilty of first-degree murder. Our legal doctrine is sophisticated enough to handle this kind of first-order misdirection.

The hitman is committing a crime. You are hiring the hitman to commit that crime.

The data broker selling your information is not committing a crime, so the situation is not at all comparable.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#339

Post by tzs »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #323
Jensson wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Fourth Amendment is a law, and it's reasonable to say that purchasing what is (arguably) the company's data is still tantamount to a search of our "effects". Got any precedents for this? All examples given in this thread was about the government forcing companies to hand over data, not companies just plain selling it to the government. These companies are already selling this data to other companies, like credi…

I don't. My point is just that the Supreme Court can set a precedent, so it's possible that if the case were brought to them they might decide that it's covered under the Fourth Amendment (or something similar) without needing additional legislation.

I don't see any reasonable way they could find a way to expand the Fourth Amendment to cover this without it also covering things like the government using information given to them by informants and witnesses without a warrant.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#340

Post by austincheney »

jkhdigital wrote: post #291
austincheney wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I understand the subject is unpleasant but I don't see anything that remotely qualifies as legal over reach. Users must sign a consent statement to a terms of services agreement. That is a voluntary action where users erode their own privacy protections and surrender their contributions. Anything that happens later is completely incidental and solely between the data owner (which is not the user) and the third p…

Irrelevant to the 4th amendment. A service's TOS does not absolve the government of its constitutional prohibition against unreasonable search and seizure. Buying data from a 3rd party service is still a search and seizure, much like paying a hitman is still first-degree murder. The question is whether it is reasonable.

Social media is not the third party once you surrender your data to them. You, the user/product, become the third party in any forthcoming transactions. The only legal challenge therein are details related to exposure of bulk PII which remain protected without regard for the fourth amendment by other laws.

This has been the case for decades. I remember before the internet publishers selling their users subscription and preference data to solicitors. People don’t gain new privacy protections where they never existed prior, especially if the absence of expectations is explicit and agreed upon by the user.

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