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Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#331

Post by toolz »

fsckboy wrote: post #304
mihaaly wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is always nice being vigilant for all and every possible scam and fraud out there coming our ways, being ready and prepared for whatever comes from whatever direction and for whatever target of ours, going after every suspicious matters we encounter or believe we encounter, being suspitious against as much as possible preparing ourselves for all kinds that could happen out there, but shouldn't be required. If it i…

> It is always nice being vigilant for all and every possible scam and fraud out there coming our ways, being ready and prepared for whatever comes from whatever direction and for whatever target of ours, going after every suspicious matters we encounter or believe we encounter, being suspitious against as much as possible preparing ourselves for all kinds that could happen out there, but shouldn't be required. Yes,…

I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with the ideal of not burdening the victim but I would suggest it's much healthier for society to praise a victim for doing the extra work to punish antisocial behavior.

The reality is we desperately need victims help to expose offenders for many types of antisocial behaviors and while we all want victims suffering to end, maybe as a society we could turn victimhood into an opportunity to be a hero? Of course this wouldn't/shouldn't shoulder the burden on victims but should they choose to take on the task, society would reward them with praise instead of sympathy.

I don't know that this is entirely viable, but wouldn't it be nice for the violated to get cheers instead of sympathy cards?

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#332

Post by Wildgoose »

the_svd_doctor wrote: post #264
koonsolo wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you use a driver's license when everyone can have a digital ID card? In Belgium the notary will always ask for your digital ID card.

Doesn't the UK _not_ have ID cards?

We are looking at an example of just how bad a mismanaged central database can be. I don't want an ID card that gives someone the ability to delete my entire official existence; either accidentally - or deliberately.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#333

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

horsawlarway wrote: post #296
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's a lease in place, that lease continues unabated. If the new owner wants the tenants out, the tenants have to agree to break the lease. Otherwise the tenants can continue to live there until their lease runs out. It doesn't matter whether these are the best options for the owner(s). They're the only options.

Yes - I understand how leasing works (although you can absolutely build a termination clause in for either/all sides). That's why I say make it the current owners responsibility if you don't want tenants there: They must either invoke their termination clause (and usually pay a fee), or offer to buy the tenants out, or pay you some penalty fee for every day the house remains occupied after sale. Alternatively - if yo…

> I say make it the current owners responsibility if you don't want tenants there:

I can't say there has never been a home seller that would agree to that. I can say I never ran into it at our office, nor have I heard of it. Commercial real estate does all kinds of build-to-suit but residential property is generally sold as-is, with any improvements done before listing.

In this market tho, sellers don't listen to buyer conditions. They just go to the next all-cash buyer who's probably offering over list price.

> if you don't want tenants there: They must either invoke their termination clause (and usually pay a fee)

Again here, I've never heard of a residential lease with a fee-based termination clause, nor prepared one or had one as a tenant. One possibility is that it's not legal in areas I've lived but I don't know. I'm visiting the attorney (now ret) this week so I'll ask.

> if you plan on gutting the place anyways, and their lease is due to expire in less than 6 months: Leave them in place and keep the property bringing in some income while you schedule contractors and line up work.

This is generally how it goes. That and the keys for cash thing you alluded to earlier. However tenants are less likely to take the latter because moving costs are typically equal to 2mos-6mos rent - and because renters have nowhere to go. Rent cost skyrocketed (15-120% here) and what few rentals there are have 40-400 applicants each.

notes: I was offered a cash-for-keys recently when our previous rental was sold. Unsurprisingly, that seller stiffed us so it's small claims.

My ex and her bf have been squatting in a foreclosure for the past few years. They generally kept it up. The buyer is letting them stay for another month until the remodel begins.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#335

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

System doesn't seem very secure, but it relies on thiefs being lazy. If this happens 10 times a year, it's couple million pounds - much less than the cost of setting up a more secure (and thus more inconvenient) system. Just like credit card payments are very insecure, but they just charge some extra % in transaction fees to cover the losses.

PS later it mentions that Land Registry pays out $3.5m/year compensating fraud victims, so my estimate wasn't too far off)

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#336

Post by irrational »

yupper32 wrote: post #191
irrational wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way? We sat down and decided how much we wanted for our house and told the potential buyers how much. They thought about it for a day and then told us they would give us that much money for the house. Maybe we could have made more on the open market, but we were happy and they were happy.

> Maybe we could have made more on the open market, but we were happy and they were happy. That's my point. You could potentially have made a lot more money on the open market. Especially if the buyers didn't even try to negotiate. That usually means they would pay more (let alone what other buyers might pay). The value of your house is what people are willing to pay for it, not what you think it's worth or what you…

I don’t understand your point. We are happy with what we sold our house for. Would more money make us happier? No.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#337

Post by horsawlarway »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #333
horsawlarway wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - I understand how leasing works (although you can absolutely build a termination clause in for either/all sides). That's why I say make it the current owners responsibility if you don't want tenants there: They must either invoke their termination clause (and usually pay a fee), or offer to buy the tenants out, or pay you some penalty fee for every day the house remains occupied after sale. Alternatively - if yo…

> I say make it the current owners responsibility if you don't want tenants there: I can't say there has never been a home seller that would agree to that. I can say I never ran into it at our office, nor have I heard of it. Commercial real estate does all kinds of build-to-suit but residential property is generally sold as-is, with any improvements done before listing. In this market tho, sellers don't listen to buy…

> Again here, I've never heard of a residential lease with a fee-based termination clause, nor prepared one or had one as a tenant. One possibility is that it's not legal in areas I've lived but I don't know. I'm visiting the attorney (now ret) this week so I'll ask.

I've literally never had a residential lease that hasn't included a termination clause. Generally speaking, both parties agree up front that the other party may request termination in exchange for compensation (in my experience, 3 months rent is typical, although I've seen fixed payments as well).

Commercial is a different beast, since generally subletting is approved, and space customization is expected (the business will adjust the space as needed for commercial use, like changing walls, installing shelves/chairs/tables, adding or removing kitchen space, etc.)

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#338

Post by dolmen »

forty wrote: post #235
laurent92 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Notary in France doesn’t necessarily fully do this job. They have an obligation of means, ie check the last 30 years of ownership and permits, but there are many cracks in that system: - Double ownership for 30 years followed by a proof of ownership from the real, hidden one; - Or simply it is the notary’s understanding that there is no record past 12 years for example, and yet there is. If they have checked “the…

Is there stories of people getting their property stolen this way? My guess is that in France, if such a story as the article happended, the buyer would be kicked out of the house (and probably lose their money stolen by the fraudsters) but maybe I'm completely wrong.

I remember to have seen a story in France of someone that had bought a house, but someone else did break in and rented it to a family. The people in the house had a rental contract, so they had the immediate right to stay, even it the contract was invalid. Evicting them was a nightmare.

Here is a similar story: https://lemans.maville.com/actu/actudet_--nous-sommes-abando...

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#339

Post by fsckboy »

toolz wrote: post #331
fsckboy wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is always nice being vigilant for all and every possible scam and fraud out there coming our ways, being ready and prepared for whatever comes from whatever direction and for whatever target of ours, going after every suspicious matters we encounter or believe we encounter, being suspitious against as much as possible preparing ourselves for all kinds that could happen out there, but shouldn't be required. Yes,…

I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with the ideal of not burdening the victim but I would suggest it's much healthier for society to praise a victim for doing the extra work to punish antisocial behavior. The reality is we desperately need victims help to expose offenders for many types of antisocial behaviors and while we all want victims suffering to end, maybe as a society we could turn victimhood into…

we don't require murder victims to help out the prosecution of the offender, the state takes that role.

the point is, it should be the same here.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#340

Post by sofixa »

Wildgoose wrote: post #332
the_svd_doctor wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the UK _not_ have ID cards?

We are looking at an example of just how bad a mismanaged central database can be. I don't want an ID card that gives someone the ability to delete my entire official existence; either accidentally - or deliberately.

In normal countries with central ID systems, nobody can delete your official existence. Worst case scenario is you're wrongly declared dead, but I don't see how "chaos and anarchy and just use random pieces of paper to prove who you are" avoids this problem.
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