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Tech compensation in 2021

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Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#331

Post by dragonwriter »

adventured wrote: post #266
somewhereoutth wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US everything is pretty broken anyway - so go right ahead and change stuff, you might even fix something!! Whereas in Europe everything pretty much works as it should, so why rock the boat??

If things are working so well in Europe, why hasn't most of Europe seen any economic growth in two or three decades? That sure sounds like it's severely broken to me. The GDP of Germany and France are both below where they were in 1995 inflation adjusted (and that was true even before Covid hit). Britain's economy is where it was in 1998. Italy is far below where it was 30 years ago ($2.1t today; $1.32t in 1992, whic…

> The GDP of Germany and France are both below where they were in 1995 inflation adjusted

No, they aren't. German real (=inflation adjusted) GDP and real GDP per capita are much higher than in 1995.

(real GDP) https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp (real GDP per capita) https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

France looks similar.

I don't know where you got your numbers, or if you did something like take the nominal GDP in USD and then adjust using the US CPI.

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#332

Post by loeg »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #267
ska wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point was actually that the article and ones like this seem well research but don't match the reality Isn't it more that they match the reality, but the reality only for a relatively small section of a bimodal (or more) distribution?

I have no data to back that up but I think you may be right. We always show salary as a normal distribution but maybe it is bimodal.

https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ discusses this somewhat (2015 numbers).

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#333

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

matthewbauer wrote: post #303
eegg7 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best thing I did for my career was leave Boston for an entry level FANG job on the West Coast 10 years ago. I currently make more than 10x what I was making in Boston. But it has been a grind no doubt. And probably some luck.

Sorry, 10x seems like a crazy difference when talking about salary. Could you be more specific? I’m trying to figure out numbers that make sense. Like you were getting $30,000 a year in 2011 and now getting $300,000+ in 2021? In the same field? Either the Boston salary was crazy low or fang salary is crazy high.

It's not actually that crazy, and less so if you look at total comp.

I made $55k 10 years ago, and just took a pay cut from $225k to $160k in a much lower cost of living area. I've had jobs with consistent $25-50k yearly cash bonuses, where some folks got as much as $250k of bonus in a year. And then options and RSUs are just the icing on the cake. Big lumbering public company? Starts at 100k a year worth of RSUs. Early stage at a unicorn? Easily $1M a year.

I've mostly worked at pre-IPO startups you've heard of -- forget FAANG.

East coast salaries a decade ago outside of New York were abysmal compared to their west coast counterparts, and still are for the most part, but due to the rapid growth of remote work, things are improving greatly.

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#334

Post by loeg »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #319
tubby12345 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>every time I see an article like this, I think I am doing something "very wrong" there's a comment like this in every single thread like this. and the recommendation is always the same: grind LC for however long you need in order to be comfortable solving hard problems cleanly in 35-45 minutes and then collect your pay bump. the fact that the 1. data 2. complaint 3. recommendation crop up with 100% perfect regularit…

What's "grind LC"?

Do practice exercises on LeetCode.

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#335

Post by rufus_foreman »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #90

20 years experience, two books under my belt, and lead architect (with a CTO title) on several good sized projects and most I have ever gotten in $175k... every time I see an article like this, I think I am doing something "very wrong" I live about 40 miles outside of Boston. Edit: Looking at levels.fyi for Boston that actually puts me above the median[1]. Why the heck is Boston so low compared to other markets? Edit…

You were happy a little bit ago and now you're not. You think you're doing something wrong.

Comparison is the thief of joy.

Do your job.

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#336

Post by throwaway19170 »

So there are all these people in these threads who are like "I only make $175K/200K/150K, I feel like I'm grossly underpaid when I read these things."

I got you all beat.

I have 15+ experience. I am a really good coder. I can be very not humble because this is a throwaway, but everyone who has ever worked with me or gone to school with me or worked on open source with me would agree, I am very good at designing and writing and maintaining software, including understanding what software should be written, let's just accept that for the sake of discussion.

I only make around $90K.

Now, I work in the non-profit/academic sector, and have my whole career. That's what I wanted to do, and I make more than most people in my social circles even at $90K, but the work is getting old, it's not actually that "meaningful" in the end, and especially when people keep saying that I could be making literally 4-5x what I'm making.

I also these days mostly only know ruby and Rails (but that's not un-marketable right? And I certainly can learn other things, I have before. And I know ruby really well).

People here are like "Sure, but don't you want good work/life balance, maybe $175K is just fine for that." Yes, and $175K would be a fortune to me!

I literally don't understand how I get into that market. Because I have worked in academic/non-profit industry my whole career. (which I don't know if that leaves me out now. And I'm in my mid-40s, does that doom me?). I know how to get more jobs in the industries I'm in at about what I'm already getting paid, and have several times...

But I don't understand even the first step to this world where $175K is considered low-paying. I believe I have the engineering skills of anyone at that level. I don't know how to get into it. Help me out?

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#337

Post by throwaway_proto »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #90

20 years experience, two books under my belt, and lead architect (with a CTO title) on several good sized projects and most I have ever gotten in $175k... every time I see an article like this, I think I am doing something "very wrong" I live about 40 miles outside of Boston. Edit: Looking at levels.fyi for Boston that actually puts me above the median[1]. Why the heck is Boston so low compared to other markets? Edit…

I'm also based in Boston, senior dev (FAANG generalist, ~10 years of experience). I make about $200k plus ~$100k RSU/year on average. Previous FAANG paid ~$140k + ~100k RSU/year. I believe my peers make more, and the info I have on CTO salaries at various startups would put $175k on the low end of the CTO pay scale.

If I were you, strictly from a financial point of view, I'd probably test the market to see what offers I get.

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#338

Post by pcmoney »

floxy wrote: post #325

For someone who is way out of this loop, what does a typical day look like for someone who make $300k at a "tech" job? $600k? Is it actually programming intensive? Like the guy who wrote the default calculator app on the iphone was making that kind of a salary? Or are you managing teams of programmers? Architecing? Is it something like 16 hour days are the norm?

Honestly it is not too different than working at a small product shop or consultancy. Except: - typically less stress and fewer hours since everyone you work with is much more competent on average (def still have some dumb dumbs or the occasional psycho though) - You have a deeper “bench” so if you are an elite performer (which you tend to be if you go small tech co to bug tech co) then there are more like you and you are not single threaded on everything. (Downside: you are much more replaceable and being “the guy” is much harder, very noticeable at the Sr/staff/+ levels) - You code way less. Much fewer “at bats” a lot more reading, researching, working across teams, figuring out the best solution, having it reviewed and then a relatively quick implementation.

Note: the 300k to 600k jump can happen shockingly easy (without promo) if RSU grants appreciate well and refreshers are generous. Doing it the “hard way” (assuming RSUs stay flat) is hard. You need to design, convince others to build, and help build truly impactful systems AND make sure you get a big chunk of the credit.

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#339

Post by motioncuty »

i1856511 wrote: post #40

How many people go into programming now simply for the money? More than 70%? What percentage of programmers would still be programmers if competitive salary was not a concern in life, and people were free to simply pursue their passions?

I mean, didnt working at it 2000+ hours a year beat the creativity and joy out of it?

Re: Tech compensation in 2021

#340

Post by robocat »

beebmam wrote: post #23
KronisLV wrote: post #14

As someone who works in an Eastern European country, i also did a writeup on how much i've made over the years and how that figure has changed, while working for a local company: https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/on-finances-and-savings In short, this year i'll probably make around 18k Euros, in total. I guess that just goes to show how different the situation is depending on where you live and where you're employed.

Why are these numbers so massively different across the world? Do European companies generate that much less revenue? Or are labor unions in Europe just that much less effective at bargaining? Or is productivity that much lower in Europe? (I'm not sold on any of these)

Looking at New Zealand, there are a few drivers to lower pay:

1. A business will pay the least they can to hire someone, so salary really depends on the excess availability of potential employees - if there is an excess of developers then wages remain low. The business owners sensibly wish to keep the excess profits (why share?).

2. Businesses have a figure for what a standard developer is worth, and that figure is disconnected from the value of that person to the business. I have repeatedly seen businesses lose extremely profitable employees because the business decision makers wouldn’t pay someone enough more than a “normal” salary for their position.

3. There are a lot of NZ software businesses that are simply not that profitable and they don’t generate the excess profits necessary to pay high wages. Not that many companies earn enough to pay SV wages.

4. I suspect that a lot of super-talented people move to SV, and the wages there are skewed by the excess talent (excess talent is not so common elsewhere?). I have personally seen some extremely talented developers leave my town for overseas for higher wages, because the talented have the best opportunity to do so.

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