The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#331

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

metagame wrote: post #232

nverno wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree his ideas of merit-based entry would alienate a sizeable portion of perspective MIT students (the article also shows supporting polls). MIT, not merit-based, are you kidding?

Offering a social, outreach-based task to a man whose views are cause for alienation against prospective students not just prospective MIT students, but the field at large , which is substantially larger than the four-thousand undergrads MIT has, would indeed not be meritocratic. I'm not going to debate what his views actually are, and I personally agree very heavily with merit-based admission. Like I've said elsewhe…

I'm very skeptical that the attitude can be isolated this way. There's a lot of people who genuinely do feel uncomfortable when authority figures don't share their political views, and that discomfort won't go away just because you're no longer in "outreach mode". If you shape your outreach efforts to target them, and you successfully convince them to apply to MIT (or enter the broader field), won't they expect their lecturers to be held to the same standard?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#332

Post by dang » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

metagame wrote: post #296

civilized wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying and it's reasonable. I think you greatly overestimate the objective rigor and correctness of your analysis, but I get it. Sanctioning widely-held views as not meritorious alienates a lot of people too. They don't seem to figure into your calculations. Based on your other posts, you seem to think that the most important audience for the talk is prospective climate change researchers, who you b…

You're wording this in a way that's deliberately representing your ideological opponents in the worst possible faith and light, and if nothing else it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of not only the views of your opponents, but of people who would be sympathetic to your views if you would take ten seconds to apply tact to your words. This is the exact opposite of a good-faith argument and a demonstratio…

You guys are both putting too much energy into commenting about the "you" at the other end of the discussion. Not only is it leading you to break the site guidelines, it makes the discussion noisier and more tedious for everybody else.

You both have interesting points to make. If you'd stick to making them substantively, thoughtfully, and respectfully, the thread would be much better. "Respectfully" generally includes avoiding telling people things about themselves that are not likely to land well. There are times when that's necessary, but talking to strangers over the internet is not one of them.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#333

Post by dang » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #304

metagame wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wording this in a way that's deliberately representing your ideological opponents in the worst possible faith and light, and if nothing else it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of not only the views of your opponents, but of people who would be sympathetic to your views if you would take ten seconds to apply tact to your words. This is the exact opposite of a good-faith argument and a demonstratio…

I'm baffled by this response. I've done my best to summarize what you seem to be saying and what I see as the blind spots. I don't even see you as an opponent. We seem to disagree on a particular PR tactic and how it plays with the public. Is "I get what you're saying and it's reasonable" something that a person who is deliberately trying to represent your ideas in the worst possible light would say?

You guys are both putting too much energy into commenting about the "you" at the other end of the discussion. Not only is it leading you to break the site guidelines, it makes the discussion noisier and more tedious for everybody else.

You both have interesting points to make. If you'd stick to making them substantively, thoughtfully, and respectfully, the thread would be much better. "Respectfully" generally includes avoiding telling people things about themselves that are not likely to land well. There are times when that's necessary, but talking to strangers over the internet is not one of them.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#334

Post by woodruffw » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

Some of the language in this article is a little breathless: it makes the claim that this instance is "quantitatively different," but the instance is the same kind we've seen before: a professional or academic having dislikeable views outside of their field.

It's also not clear whether this man (whose name I honestly can't remember after reading the article) has been "cancelled" in any meaningful sense: he now has an article in a leading liberal magazine defending him, written by another highly titled and positioned academic. Oh, and then he ended up speaking on behalf of MIT anyways, except not in a public venue where inviting him could be seen as an endorsement of him qua person.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#335

Post by Miner49er » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

missblit wrote: post #303

helen___keller wrote: post #199

If it wasn’t Twitter it would be Facebook, TikTok, Reddit, or whatever social network is cool tomorrow. The social media cat is out of the bag. Mob justice is, unfortunately, the purest form of democracy, untempered by government or constitution or other forms of control. The only paths forward are to live with mob justice or to enforce actions against free speech and expression (ie making it illegal to cancel someon…

Social Media is not the purest form of democracy because the people using social media, or who have a lot of followers on social media, are not representative

More represented then in traditional media, though. So the most democratic form of media we've ever had, most likely.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#336

Post by civilized » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #332

metagame wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wording this in a way that's deliberately representing your ideological opponents in the worst possible faith and light, and if nothing else it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of not only the views of your opponents, but of people who would be sympathetic to your views if you would take ten seconds to apply tact to your words. This is the exact opposite of a good-faith argument and a demonstratio…

You guys are both putting too much energy into commenting about the "you" at the other end of the discussion. Not only is it leading you to break the site guidelines, it makes the discussion noisier and more tedious for everybody else. You both have interesting points to make. If you'd stick to making them substantively, thoughtfully, and respectfully, the thread would be much better. "Respectfully" generally include…

Thanks dang. I agree with you completely after seeing the results. If I could edit those comments at this point I would. I've done my best with the ones I still can.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#337

Post by SteveDR » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #35

lotsofpulp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a very simple solution. I struggle to see any material effect to MIT had they simply ignored these complainers.

Many such cases. That's why we need to look more closely at why the professional administrative class so eagerly does the wishes of activist mobs. Could it be that the activists and the administrators believe the same things?

Or administrators don’t want the mob’s fight to be amplified into mainstream national news. I’m sure this would upset donors.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#338

Post by rdiddly » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

crocodiletears wrote: post #192

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really OK for you to agree with someone who doesn't share your entire set of political beliefs. There is no need to be suspicious. It's probably a bad thing for the world to be divided into "us and them", don't you think?

Group affiliation is a decent heuristic. It helps you to know what to look for when identifying whether there are concessions made to forward a larger agenda concealed within the text. I wouldn't dismiss the document out of hand by virtue of its author's social circles, but I also wouldn't say that suspicion is entirely unwarranted. Though the CFR is such a large organization, I would also be less immediately suspici…

It fosters confirmation bias. You will tend to find whatever you're looking for.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#339

Post by still_grokking » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #292

ghaff wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, in the US, there doesn't need to be a "just cause." Someone has become a headache or embarrassment for us--for whatever unprotected reason--is sufficient.

In the US sodomy was a crime too. Laws can change. Labour law is not written in stone. And even with current laws, where there "need not be a just cause", there are protections against unjust causes (e.g. because they found out you're jewish, or you're fat, or whatever) and "because a mob campaigned against one" can be added to that. "But, under current law the business could just say they fired them for their own ne…

But there is than the next obstacle in the US system: You need to have very deep pockets to actually take a case in court. "Justice" is only available to the rich in the US. (And this doesn't seem to be a construction error if you look closer. But that's another topic).

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#340

Post by chiefalchemist » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Are these "mobs" organized (which by definition flirts with not being a mob)? Or do they manifest and are fed by the algorythm? Or a bit of both?

The point being, there seems to be a steady stream things that get a free pass. On the other hand, seemingly random - and often less impactful - things / people get canceled. Mind you, the media is often guilty of the same disconnect. But they too are driven by engagement and profit.