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FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

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Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These cheap shots or trench war between both sides does nobody any good, it divides people instead of unite them. For me the major issue with the vaccine is the extremely fast track from inventing it to getting it out the door. An FDA approval will not change my mind on the safety of the vaccine, only time can do that. By that i mean that we need more time to assess the long-term effects, something that many pro-vacc…

No vaccine has ever had a long term effect that isn't visible soon after it is administered. Vaccines are one and done and eliminate quickly from the body, unlike other medications, which can be administered daily or weekly for years and can accumulate in organs. https://www.uab.edu/reporter/resources/be-healthy/item/9544-... "This is particularly true of the mRNA vaccines. mRNA degrades incredibly rapidly. You would…

How about the cases of narcolepsy that were caused by the swine-flu vaccine Pandremix? As far as I understand it took around 2 years before it was officially stated that the vaccine was/is the cause for these cases. Until 2015 the numbers grew even higher because of the delay between vaccination and the first symptoms.

I wouldn't really call that "soon after it is administered".

And the same is also true for covid's long term effects. I'm still reading new articles/conclusions about those effects.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if true, so what? It's their bodies. They should be allowed to choose, just like you are.

Because in cases like this, the choice they’re making with their body can be directly responsible for the hospitalization and death of other people in their vicinity. Vaccines aren’t fool proof, every person who doesn’t take the vaccine is an increased chance for those who did take the vaccine to get exposed to a breakthrough case. I know I wouldn’t want to work in person at any place that didn’t have a vaccine manda…

are you overweight, elderly or otherwise immunocompromised? if not your risk of hospitalization or death [from covid19] is miniscule.

>it being hard to be a part of society if you refuse to take one of the most basic steps to protect other people in it.

there are a huge number of diseases you can knowingly spread with far more severe long term consequences while still being 'part of society'. frankly i do not think free and democratic societies can survive while trying to also fulfill the moral compunction not to let anyone die ever from transmittable illness, it is simply at odds with our biology. we, like all mammals are walking bags of filth and disease and no amount of indefinite containment will ever change that reality.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#333
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right. People won't change their minds about it. But the question is, should they be allowed to control what goes inside their bodies? In my opinion, the answer is a huge YES OF COURSE.

The problem is that it’s not that simple because your choices significantly impact other people: I can’t choose whether or not to receive the viruses you spread, so I have an interest in you spreading far fewer of them. My 4 year old child can’t be vaccinated so he, along with many immune-compromised people or those with certain medical conditions, is dependent on other people getting vaccinated to sharply reduce spr…

Should the flu be mandatory as well? Flu & Covid have similar risks in children: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/flu-vs-covid19.htm https://www.npr.org/2021/05/21/999241558/in-kids-the-risk-of...

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#334
post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

>I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. Disclaimer: I am fully vax, so not the target audience. The subject is worth discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine#History RNA vaccines have decades of failures. Following the normal drug approval processes 100% of RNA attempts have failed. The only reason we got the vaccine today…

What I find most sad about your post is that you had to open by stating your vaccination status. So we effectively reached a point where you are only allowed to be critical of vaccination after you got yourself a shot. This is so weird and frightening, I dont know what to say. Things said and claimed by all sides in the past 1 1/2 years have made me really stop believe in humanity. It feels like a bad dream or a strange fiction story. One of these were you end up fully immersed. And you want to wake up, but this time, you realize you can't.

People are seriously writing here that they think if people are being fired, that pressure will "hopefully change their minds". Are you aware how cruel you are? You wish someone to loose their income just because they dont have the same opinion then you? When did this happen? When did we start to produce people like this? When did we stop to care? Did I really miss this wave of right-wing-minded people hiding on the left side?

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#335
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I hope that you don't get COVID or spread it to anyone else but … hope sure isn't working as well as the vaccines. Good luck!

The CDC director admitted that vaccines no longer stop transmission of COVID [1]. Are you anti-science now too? [1] https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/health/us-coronavirus-thursda...

This is misrepresenting the science similarly to arguing that seatbelts are useless because some people still die in crashes. We've always known that vaccination is not 100% effective but it's also not 0% — the data is complicated since it depends on the people involved, the strain, and environmental factors but it very strongly suggests that vaccinated people are less likely to spread than the unvaccinated.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#336
post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

It’s not a pivot for me, particularly since I got the vaccine, but I think there are legitimate reasons to be hesitant and removing one reason doesn’t invalidate other reasons people may bring up. The big one in my mind is how do Pfizer, BioNTech, or the FDA validate safety of the vaccine over the long term? For instance what if it turns out that something approved today turns out to be carcinogenic twenty years from…

(I'm fully vaxxed, and will get a booster shot if I can) It's a complicated risk assessment situation. My thought process was like this: a) Realization: No strategy will be risk-free. COVID will not magically disappear. b) Because of my work and my preferred way of living, I will interact with a lot of people, including international travel on planes, etc. c) I am therefore very likely to be in contact with COVID infected people, of which I cannot guarantee they will be masked, or considerate. d) It is therefore very likely that sooner or later I will contract COVID. It is likely, indeed, that I would contract it more than once, as long-term protection from infection seems lower than vaccination. e) I'm not super likely to die from it, but the likelihood of short, mid and long term consequences is high. f) I do not want to be the reason somebody else gets it (parents, friends,...)

Because of e and f, I think the risk of a vaccine is much lower. By now, we see very small risks for serious short and mid term effects. We know how long the mRNA survives in the body (I don't think we know that from the COVID virus, that could potentially hide for a very long time, as other viruses demonstrate), virtually eliminating direct long-term effects. What remains are the unkown unknowns. Can it trigger something? Sure, we have observed that in other vaccines. But it is very, very rare, not only that vaccine can cause it, but also that if the vaccine can cause it, one is affected. Additionally: It is very likely that a COVID infected person would have a similar risk -- much of the immuno-response is the similar to a vaccination (but maybe broader). Since I assume a close to 100% prob to get infected at some point if unvaccinated, it's not an additional risk.

To explain the last point a little: A way you can construct a long term effect goes like this: If the presented spike protein is close enough to a natural,i.e. normally expressed, protein, the antibodies could affect both, and potentially destroy an important body function. That risk, I think, is actually higher with a full infection, since the antibodies learn not only the spike protein, but potentially more of the virus, so there is more chance of similarity with something else. In any case, as far as we know, the chance for something is remote.

RE approval process: What calms my mind there is that all countries for which I normally trust the approval process gave their OK, including those which went with a different strategy, or where it was less of a political issue. While it's possible that they all got corrupted by political pressure, that's less likely.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#337
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>By that i mean that we need more time to assess the long-term effects, something that many pro-vaccine people seem unwilling to accept. That is unfortunate. We are way past the time frame for long-term effects to manifest themselves for a corona-like vaccine.

This is not true. There could be birth defects or lower iq in babies born from vaccinated mothers.

Those could also be long term side effects of covid. A double digit percentage of people who catch the disease end up in the hospital soon after infection compared to fraction of a fraction of a percent of vaccine recipients in the time after they get the shot.

Your priors have to be absolutely outrageous if based on the currently available data you think the risks are even within an order of magnitude.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recent came across a technique for having a more substantial discussion and it was to ask: "Well, what would it take for you to change your mind?" Not that this is a silver bullet that automatically leads to peace and harmony, but it's a step in the right direction.

Why does this technique change anything? You are still assuming the supposed superior position, since you imply that the stance of your discussion partner is wrong and needs to be changed. Dont you see how patronising this is?

This kind of fragility is hostile to rational discussions. There's no patronisation to asking somebody a question about their beliefs; it's literally just a question. If somebody asked me that, I would take it as an opportunity to really explore my beliefs, and think about what conditions would cause me to change my beliefs. It has nothing to do with the other person or their beliefs. We shouldn't encourage this kind of fragility and victim complex that has become so common lately.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#339

People don’t want to take the vaccine because others are trying to force them to. They would say “it’s not FDA approved!” not as the core of their hesitancy, but because they were trying to be appeal to pro-vax peoples decision making framework. I don’t think we should be able to require them to. To many of you here: imagine the Trump admin trying to require you to take the vaccine in November of last year. Cities wo…

Do you have any specific examples of this?: "weird, Orwellian ways that the government talks about it"

Public schools, colleges, and the military have been requiring vaccines for decades.

>It ends up feeling less like the decisions are guided by science and more like they’re guided by petty tyrants wanting to control what others do.

This sounds like a result of reading about what health care and government officials are saying instead of actually reading what they are saying.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about you. It's about preventing other, more vulnerable people from getting sick. Living in a society means giving up some of your freedoms in exchange for security, and getting vaccinated as a way to help other people should be part of that exchange.

I don't agree with this, in general. We shouldn't give up our freedoms. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." (Benjamin Franklin) We should be motivated by a desire to help one another, and resist when freedoms are removed. That being said, if businesses want to exercise their freedoms to make life more difficult for the unvaccinated, s…

It's unclear to me that being allowed to work at a specific company without taking a vaccine is an "essential Liberty".

I don't believe that attending public school while unvaccinated is an essential Liberty.

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