Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0% • Hacker News Board

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#331

Post by matheusmoreira » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 11:13 PM UTC

k12sosse wrote: post #314

matheusmoreira wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they can be installed along with the games under a gaming only account on the Linux machine, that is, with zero permissions on system and other users files around, that's fine with me. Completely ineffective. It will be trivial to circumvent those protections. Might as well not bother. The truth is cheaters are merely excersising their computing freedom. It's my computer, the game is merely running on it. If I w…

Not that I disagree but if you accept the EULA that states otherwise, doesn't that mean you don't have the prerogative? It sounds like you want to skip over the EULA, isn't respecting licensing models a huge thing for Linuxheads? Honest question.

> doesn't that mean you don't have the prerogative?

It means I've agreed not to cheat. I have the power to do it, I just agreed not to use it.

I won't let them take my power away though.

> isn't respecting licensing models a huge thing for Linuxheads?

Personally I'm not a fan of intellectual property in general. Licenses included. They all depend on copyright which should be abolished.

The only thing that makes any sense to me is the boundary between my computer and their servers. I should be able to do whatever I want on my computer. They should be able to do whatever they want on their servers. If they can't detect cheating server side, that's just too bad because they aren't gonna be doing it on my machine.

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#332

Post by matheusmoreira » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #310

matheusmoreira wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, they're completely irrelevant. Of all the affronts to computing freedom, anti-cheating is the worst. The truth is the online gaming model where we play with untrustworthy strangers is completely broken. We should all be playing with friends we can trust instead.

What would be the point of a competitive game if you could just cheat? Racing games like Trackmania live off verifying people don't cheat because it's a game where people compete for leaderboards. Should they not be allowed to prevent you from cheating yourself to the top of the leaderboard.

They should recognize the fact that it's impossible to prevent cheating and stop shipping malware to users in an fruitless attempt to do so.

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#333

Post by matheusmoreira » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

yissp wrote: post #322

matheusmoreira wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not entitlement to want to play the games I paid money for without my computer getting owned. This is basic respect, not some insane notion. Why are game companies entitled to complete control over our computers?

Then don't give these companies your business. I certainly don't. There are enough games that don't pull this kind of shit to keep me entertained.

True. Nowadays I play single player games because of this. I simply can't trust these companies. The situation should never have gotten to this point.

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#334

Post by fuzxi » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #327

fuzxi wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overwatch briefly had a system like this, where you could mark players in your matches positively or negatively, so they'd be more or less likely to show up in your future matches. They had to remove it after a top level player could no longer find fair matches. He was waiting 10-20 minutes before getting matched with much lower skilled players. He was by all accounts a pleasant person, but he was so good at the game…

You fix that by adding handicaps. Not only it solves the problem of lower-skilled players still being interested in playing better opponents, it gives top-level players a way to continue improving their own game even when the opposition is weak.

That absolutely does not solve the problem? A grandmaster chess player is going to get tired of playing handicapped games against 1000 Elo noobs.

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#335

Post by lobocinza » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 11:56 PM UTC

k12sosse wrote: post #314

matheusmoreira wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they can be installed along with the games under a gaming only account on the Linux machine, that is, with zero permissions on system and other users files around, that's fine with me. Completely ineffective. It will be trivial to circumvent those protections. Might as well not bother. The truth is cheaters are merely excersising their computing freedom. It's my computer, the game is merely running on it. If I w…

Not that I disagree but if you accept the EULA that states otherwise, doesn't that mean you don't have the prerogative? It sounds like you want to skip over the EULA, isn't respecting licensing models a huge thing for Linuxheads? Honest question.

Nobody read EULAs.

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#336

Post by rglullis » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 12:47 AM UTC

fuzxi wrote: post #334

rglullis wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fix that by adding handicaps. Not only it solves the problem of lower-skilled players still being interested in playing better opponents, it gives top-level players a way to continue improving their own game even when the opposition is weak.

That absolutely does not solve the problem? A grandmaster chess player is going to get tired of playing handicapped games against 1000 Elo noobs.

> going to get tired of playing handicapped games against 1000 Elo noobs.

False dichotomy. What about playing 1800 players but starting with only one bishop? Or how about playing the same 1800 players get to use some assistance that warns of blunders/mistakes, but does not give away the better moves? It's only "cheating" if it is not agreed beforehand...

Also, bear in mind that your Overwatch example gave the impression that the good/honest player was so above the others that even without the opponent flagging system, the above-average player would be matching with "boring" games most of the time. Removing the opponent rating system does not solve his problem and still leaves the cheating issue open.

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#337

Post by nybble41 » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:27 AM UTC

mrinterweb wrote: post #233

tl wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a huge fan of the work Valve is doing, both in gaming hardware and Linux support, but I'm unconvinced helping game-oriented malware run on Linux is good period, let alone the "greatest thing to ever happen to Linux gaming".

I don't fully trust the vendors of anti-cheat software, but I don't think its fair to classify it as "malware". The "mal" in malware mean "malicious". I don't think most anti-cheat software operates with malicious intent.

Most malware is developed to serve some profit motive, not as a result of actual abstract malice toward the victim. I really don't think that's enough to disqualify it. Merrium-Webster defines malware as "software designed to interfere with a computer's normal functioning"[0]. WebRoot defines it as "any type of software designed to infiltrate or damage a computer system without the owner's informed consent"[1]. Red Hat's definition is a bit broader: "malicious software, including any software that acts against the interest of the user"[2]. Most anti-cheat software would fit all of these criteria, with perhaps some quibbling over what counts as "informed consent".

[0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/malware

[1] https://www.webroot.com/us/en/resources/tips-articles/what-i...

[2] https://www.redhat.com/en/topics/security/what-is-malware

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#338

Post by samtheDamned » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:45 AM UTC

tl wrote: post #122

Zhyl wrote: post #74

A headline in Linux gaming circles that hasn't hit the wider circuit yet (probably because it hasn't actually been delivered yet) is that Valve are working with Battleye and EAC to get anti-cheat working on Proton for the release of the steam deck. If this happens it will be, without exaggeration, the greatest thing to ever happen to Linux gaming. I'm not expecting a massive increase overnight, but it should mean tha…

I'm a huge fan of the work Valve is doing, both in gaming hardware and Linux support, but I'm unconvinced helping game-oriented malware run on Linux is good period, let alone the "greatest thing to ever happen to Linux gaming".

Its about choice. You aren't required to run EAC or battleye but you can choose to if you want to play video games with your friends. Also anticheat on linux is easier to work with than anticheat on windows. Running a linux gaming VM / dualboot is going to be much easier than a windows gaming vm / dual boot.

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#339

Post by samtheDamned » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:51 AM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #294

AlphaSite wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is an underlying assumption that you’re entitled to play the game, therefor anti cheat is violating your freedoms. But if we remove the assumption that you are entitled to play any game how ever you please i think this argument somewhat falls apart. If you don’t like their using anti cheat, then just don’t play those games which use it. I just don’t think enough people agree with you that it will work i…

It's not entitlement to want to play the games I paid money for without my computer getting owned. This is basic respect, not some insane notion. Why are game companies entitled to complete control over our computers?

It depends on if you're talking about single player or multiplayer. Notably EAC and battleye are both only really used on multiplayer based games. Cheating on those games isn't "exercising your rights" because you aren't entitled to ruining others experience. Multiplayer is more than a simple "buy and own everything inside" experience because you are buying the ability to use their servers according to their rules and TOS. I support requiring the ability to run your own server without anticheat and full ownership and ability on those but you don't have the right to abuse multiplayer services just because you bought a license to play it.

Re: Steam survey shows Linux marketshare hitting 1.0%

#340

Post by zzo38computer » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 4:09 AM UTC

Some problems mentioned on the comments on here, although I can think of other problems too than only the ones mentioned. So, I can think of another possible solution to these and many other problems (although it has limitations, but there always will be): Don't design your game for Windows or Linux; write it for Famicom or Game Boy Advance or whatever (or design your own open source VM if you must, and use that). Emulators are available for many computer systems (including the less common ones), and will do many things for you automatically too that you will not have to deal with by yourself, such as rebinding controls, zoom levels, etc. They will then also the user will not have to worry about malware as much, either.