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Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

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Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#331
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way ahead of ya ;) but you didn't address my question

All PDF viewers are crap in my experience. If you don't agree, you haven't used PDF enough. PDF has Javascript as a programming language, it has extensions for 3D models and a ton of other stuff (I think even sound). As a format it's almost as complex as the entire web stack. Multiple web browsers have embedded PDF viewers because the PDF viewing experience for most people sucked so much. That's not a product decisio…

Yeah, PDF can play embedded sound files. It is an overly complex format. Its character encodings are defined by embedded CMap files, which are a restricted subset of PostScript. It includes by reference the CCITT G3 fax standard, PNG, JPEG, JPEG-2000, JS, Deflate, TrueType, the PostScript Type 1 font format, a separate richtext format that isn't PDF for annotations (ISO 32000-1:2008 §12.7.3.4), and several other things. In different contexts it represents line endings as \r, \n, or your choice of either of those plus \r\n. And the 3-D models thing isn't an extension; it's in the base spec (§13.6), although the actual 3-D format is ECMA-363, which is included by reference, like Deflate and JPEG.

But it's nowhere close to the complexity of the entire web stack, not within an order of magnitude. It's much, much simpler.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one thing, you can't manage files over the same protocol you use to serve them, with HTTP, without extra application-layer add-ons (WebDAV or custom web file management junk) FTP can both serve and manage, all over one protocol. "But why wouldn't you use some other method to manage your files? Why combine the two?" I dunno, but WordPress is basically that (managing your blog's/site's appearance, content, and serv…

And why can't you just use a dedicated FTP client?

It's been nice to be able to link to ftp-served files or directories on websites and have that Just Work, ever since FTP was added to web browsers.

You may as well say, "why have embedded video on the web? Just open video links in VLC."

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#333
post #148
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably the largest in-use uri scheme they have dropped. At the very least, there should be better error handling. For me on Chrome/Windows, ftp:// uris just don't do anything[1]. No error, they are just inoperable links. Yes, I could fix that, but for average users, that part of whatever you want to call it could just disappear silently. [1] Because the default handler for ftp:// was originally Chrome on my sy…

I certainly was not viewing Gopher pages at the time they dropped gopher support. I was rather perplexed after updating when FTP didn't work. Turns out some downloads are still on FTP.

Proper solution is to direct the user of unknown protocol scheme to the vetted app store or a catalog.

But wait, Windows does that since Vista, except like everything it's faulty.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For network protocol perspective, FTP is weird old protocol from current view. Forget Active mode since it's no luck under NAPT. Even in Passive mode, it requires NAT device to rewrite address in command, won't work with firewall closing unknown external port without dynamic filtering by packet inspection, and server configuration isn't simple depends on network configuration. Modern network environment like NAT64/DN…

How is NAT the browser's problem? You're about 10,000 words short of "excruciating", and about half a dozen reasons short of "a variety" >There are no reason to continue using ancient protocol forever. You undermine yourself with statements like this. I explicitly asked for excruciating detail. This response essentially sums up to "because I said so". ...and it's empirically incorrect, too: You can find a ton of reas…

Even less of a problem now once IPv6 gets everywhere finally.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#335
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a great opportunity to secure your server rather than training humans to ignore security warnings, doesn't it?

Secure how? Obtaining a public certificate from a well-known registrar requires Internet connectivity for the ACME protocol, and that's at odds with the other best-security-practice of isolating internal systems like NAS devices well away from general Internet connectivity. The problem is even worse for home routers. They need Internet connectivity to have a chance of obtaining a certificate, but since they provide t…

Solved if DNSSEC is deployed and root certificates are available as they should be pinned.

What, you're using old unsigned DNS and complaining about security? Or software so old that pinned certificates are outdated?

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#336
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All PDF viewers are crap in my experience. If you don't agree, you haven't used PDF enough. PDF has Javascript as a programming language, it has extensions for 3D models and a ton of other stuff (I think even sound). As a format it's almost as complex as the entire web stack. Multiple web browsers have embedded PDF viewers because the PDF viewing experience for most people sucked so much. That's not a product decisio…

You still haven't addressed my question. I'd respond to the rest of your vague and incorrect opinions, but why would I do that if you're not even going to bother to address my points despite me asking you to repeatedly?

> You still haven't addressed my question.

If I must spell it out, there you go:

> Why was I forced to install a substandard, feature-poor, ridiculously slow pdf viewer that I never wanted and which took over as the default pdf viewer against my wishes and without asking me, just because you couldn't be bothered to install a decent one?

Because you are part of a minority of Chrome and Firefox users and I'm probably part of the majority of users, in this regard. I don't know this for sure, but if a Google program manager decided to back building and embedding an entire PDF reader into a browser, I'm 99% convinced this is true.

We're dumb and you have to live with us.

Life's tuff.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#337
post #36

I don't understand all the negativity around this. People complained when Firefox added Pocket, in part because they took a browser extension and made it a feature that was ostensibly unrelated to web browsing. Now they're taking an old feature that's definitely not related to web browsing and removing it, and people are still complaining? Firefox can't be everything. It should focus on being a great browser and not…

People just like complaining

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#338
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still haven't addressed my question. I'd respond to the rest of your vague and incorrect opinions, but why would I do that if you're not even going to bother to address my points despite me asking you to repeatedly?

> You still haven't addressed my question. If I must spell it out, there you go: > Why was I forced to install a substandard, feature-poor, ridiculously slow pdf viewer that I never wanted and which took over as the default pdf viewer against my wishes and without asking me, just because you couldn't be bothered to install a decent one? Because you are part of a minority of Chrome and Firefox users and I'm probably p…

That's.......... actually not a bad answer to my question, goddamnit ;)

BUT: you do have to concede that it's not a technical reason. It boils down to "Adobe are goddamn useless, let's just do their job for them because it will make our life a bit easier". There's no requirement for pdf viewing in the HTML spec or anything like that. It's not required for web browsing and it doesn't really have any place in the browser in a technical/engineering sense - from an "engineering purity" perspective these two things should be separate, even if you do like your pdf viewers written in javascript. The "correct/pure" engineering solution would have been for them to bundle their awful javascript pdf viewer in an electron(ish) app and release it as the "google pdf viewer", with all the requisite spam in gmail and the technical press, and to have chrome default to it if it's installed. Hell, you could make it a separate application and still bundle it with chrome.

There must have been a LOT of support enquiries about "the adobe doesn't work" for it to survive a cost/benefit analysis for implementing an entire pdf viewer. That's not a trivial piece of work that somebody churned out in an afternoon (despite the performance of the thing feeling like it ;) )

If I was that product manager, I would not make that decision lightly. First I'd have built a special page into my support area that redirects the user to adobe.com/support if they type "pdf" or "adobe" into the "search support" bar. (You know what I mean - you've seen it in action on help desk sites where they try to fob you off rather than just giving you a "contact us" box straight away).

This is all a whole lot easier to implement than a pdf viewer. In fact if you're using something like zendesk you get it for free. For me to decide to build a pdf viewer into my browser, I'd have to be getting a high volume of support emails about it after I'd implemented the change above.

I don't think that's what happened.

In the post i largely ignored, you said:

>Multiple web browsers have embedded PDF viewers because the PDF viewing experience for most people sucked so much

Allow me to give you an alternate explanation / interpretation, which I admit might come across as "a little bit cynical" or paranoid, but which I believe to be more fully borne out by the facts than the "cost/benefit analysis" theory you advocate. I don't think "multiple browsers" did that at all. Here's my theory:

1. Google decided to build a pdf viewer into chrome because they were busy trying to turn chrome into an operating system (see also: chrome os), and they knew that would mean including a pdf viewer, since a pdf viewer is a fairly essential tool for an operating system if it wants any kind of mainstream adoption. This had the added side-effect that for many users their pdf viewing experience would improve, because adobe are basically incapable of doing software. So it was really a "two-fer" for google.

2. Mozilla, seeing google's announcement for a pdf viewer built into their browser, did what Mozilla has been doing for the past decade: copy Chrome without giving any thought at all to any of the considerations you and I are discussing today. Or indeed any consideration other than "what is google doing with chrome this week?".

Now, I do try to keep my paranoia and cynicism in check, but to me this seems like a far more likely explanation. Perhaps I'm wrong. It would be kind of nice if I was. If you have some data to support your theory I'd love to see it.

I don't have much data to back up my theory. I can't be bothered looking into what chrome's support site was like pre-pdf-support. But I do have one data point: I can confirm that chrome added pdf support first, with Mozilla aping them almost immediately (they were pretty much at parity within a year or two).

Maybe Mozilla had coincidentally already done a full cost/benefit analysis of adding a pdf viewer before google went live with theirs. It's not impossible. But it seems a little unlikely to me.

;)

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You asked for a scenario in which you need ftp in 2021. You handled my example by switching to another program, such as finder or explorer. That's fine. Do you agree that your user experience decreased by having to switch programs?

> Do you agree that your user experience decreased by having to switch programs? No, because it opened automatically and was nearly seamless. I didn't even notice that I'd been moved to Finder at first.

Whoa... I missed this earlier.

>I didn't even notice that I'd been moved to Finder at first.

You... can't tell finder from a web browser??

There goes 100% of your credibility with regard to UX.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you agree that your user experience decreased by having to switch programs? No, because it opened automatically and was nearly seamless. I didn't even notice that I'd been moved to Finder at first.

Whoa... I missed this earlier. >I didn't even notice that I'd been moved to Finder at first. You... can't tell finder from a web browser ?? There goes 100% of your credibility with regard to UX.

You really like to take the worst possible interpretation of whatever someone says, don't you?

Of course I can tell the difference between a browser and the finder. My point was the transition was so seamless that I thought Safari was embedding the finder in the Safari window until I looked up at the app bar and realized it had actually switched apps.

But feel free to go on dismissing me, since it's clear from your comments that you think no one in the world is right but you.

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