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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#331

Post by bobthechef »

thinkindie wrote: post #167
zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

and just to clarify - joining the EU is an exercise of free will. Countries are met with some conditions and it's their decision to join or not. This is valid for both Hungary and Poland. If they don't want to be part of EU any longer I think Brexit showed the way, and all the consequences of that.

> joining the EU is an exercise of free will

This sounds like comments to the effect of "If you don't like how America does X, then leave X." It also frames things in a relativistic sense, as if consent is unconditionally binding and nothing but consent has any moral weight.

Anyway, this isn't as simple as it sounds. First, joining did not give the EU license to make all sorts of weird impositions and to demand these countries cooperate against their own good. Second, countries aren't people. Politicians in those countries at the time put a great deal of energy into promoting entry into the EU among the populace, and referenda results reflected a wish to deal with frustration caused by domestic political realities, and feelings of inferiority, more than some kind of reasoned and responsible decision (I recall speaking with political analysts at the time who felt that entry into the EU was a bad decision, at the very least a premature one).

> I think Brexit showed the way

This may be the only option. But this is politics. The EU is unjust (put aside the propaganda please) and so the moral high ground is not to be found in Brussels. For now, tolerating and resisting bullying from the EU is likely better than exiting. But I don't expect the EU is last another 25 years at this rate, so it might be a matter of waiting out the storm.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#332

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

I think the issue is that EU was founded with an idea that they can copy US creation pattern, but without sufficient consideration of the simple fact that there is a thousand plus years of history that is being crammed into respective citizens' heads including, but not limited to wars with neighbors. It is hard to forget blood; especially if survivors still have a state.

Do not get me wrong. I like the idea of EU. I see its benefits, but the idea ignores lessons of creating new federations. Apart from everything else, I doubt EU would be willing to do the same things US did to maintain its grip.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#333

Post by workallday21 »

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

You are naive.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#334

Post by trasz »

tester34 wrote: post #194
saiya-jin wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a load of bullcrap to be polite. I hear this from various eastern far right wing supporters quite a bit, and it isn't based on any facts, just some wishful thinking. Hungary is a net receiver of direct money subsidies. The fact is most of it is stolen by government-aligned forces within economy, this is a well-oiled machine in place for a long time. Western companies come to Hungary because its cheap force, desp…

>Eastern Europe, like many other poor places in the world, is depleted of human capital because its simply such a crappy place to live. What makes you think that it's crappy place to live (e.g Poland)? except politics

Apart from economy, healthcare, pensions, schooling, and law enforcement? :-)

Food's good, though.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#335

Post by d1sxeyes »

pasabagi wrote: post #184
pjc50 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something Yes, but is the thing they're upset about and the thing they're directing their anger towards actually linked? It's often hugely successful in politics to say "all your problems are the fault of this external bad actor" rather than " we have a problem and it's going to take a lot of hard work to fix it". It's very easy to bl…

> en masse in Eastern Europe Is Germany in Eastern Europe now?

If I remember correctly, the vast majority of the extermination camps were in occupied Poland (or Austria), rather than Germany itself.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#336

Post by AlexandrB »

rbanffy wrote: post #305
roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

The conditions that allowed Hitler to rise to power were created by the "winners" of WWI with the treaty of Versailles. These are not masses of sheep being led around by brilliant propaganda, they're often people who don't think they have anything to lose by voting for the extreme nationalist over the status quo.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#337

Post by cabalamat »

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> Hungary has the full support of Poland and the V4 - any major blowback would result in shattering itself.

Countries can only be kicked out of the EU with unanimity of all states except the one being kicked out. But Poland and Hungary have a pact to support each other, so that can't happen. I suspect though that if Hungary and Poland pissed off the EU in a big way, the other states would all leave and simultaneously form a new EU2021.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#338

Post by [deleted] »

js8 wrote: post #206
rini17 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hungary has the full support of Poland and the V4" Oversimplified view. There was common interest of V4 against accepting refugees, but Czech & Slovak rep. generally support EU's side in judicial and media independence issues. Elsewhere, German automakers have vast investments in the eastern EU and they have been holding Merkel back against Orban, together with conservative faction of CDU.

> Czech & Slovak rep. generally support EU's side in judicial and media independence issues In Czechia, I wish that was true, but our current prime minister Andrej Babis is actually openly admiring Orban, and playing up the same nationalistic politics (before the upcoming elections in October). I am not sure he would necessarily support media and judicial independence if it came down to that.

[deleted]

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#339

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

peteretep wrote: post #323
lloydjones wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree. In the UK, the lower middle class are (to generalise) materially well-off; they own their own homes, they have a couple of cars, they have large televisions, one partner does not have to work, etc. And through pure boredom/decadence, they were radicalised through years of negative messaging from the populist press into 'caring' about things like Brexit, immigration, welfare claimants, etc. These…

> the lower middle class are (to generalise) materially well-off ... they have large televisions ... through pure boredom/decadence they were radicalised ... about things they largely don't fully grasp 8/10 top parody comment. You could have strengthened it by suggesting they turn to brioche if they don't have enough bread to eat though.

Please address parent's post in good faith. The point he was not outlandish or imponderable.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#340

Post by ramphastidae »

hutzlibu wrote: post #286
ramphastidae wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/ > Turkey hosts the largest number of refugees, with nearly 3.7 million people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrians_in_Turkey > The number of Syrians in Turkey is estimated at over 3.6 million people as of March 2020,[3] and consists mainly of refugees of the Syrian Civil War.

Yes. And turkey is also very active in creating more refugees by supporting islamists in syria and active combat raids. And is using the mass of refugees regulary to blackmail the EU.

Turkey did not start the war in Syria, but they do share a border with them, and have a responsibility to secure their border from a failed state. They took in more refugees than any other country in the world, which has a massive impact on their economy and security. Requesting economic aid from the EU to deal with this is not blackmail. The EU benefits massively from keeping Syrians in Turkey, because Syrians primarily use it as a pass through on their way to Europe.
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