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As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

theatlantic.com

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Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#331

Post by stubish »

alkonaut wrote: post #71

I want to point out that this is incorrect: > It’s rare to hear someone accused of being un-Swedish or un-British—but un-American is a common slur, slung by both left and right against the other. Being called un-American is like being called “un-Christian” or “un-Islamic,” a charge akin to heresy. In fact to be unswedish is not just a common idiom it’s a positive one. It’s when you don’t show the typical negative Swe…

Unaustralian is reasonably common, used as a slur by both sides of politics, the same as described in the article. Tends to be called out with accusations of jingoism in the mud flinging though, which might make it different.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#332

Post by chiefalchemist »

"As _______ has declined, ______ intensity has risen."

That is a natural cycle for more than religion.

Look at the mainstream media. As the internet has cut into their sweet spot, they've reacted with reporting that's more binay, more sensationalized. Similar can be said of politics. Again, the internet, it enables the people to self organize, etc. And the result to politics? A louder and more extreme mindset professing how important gov is.

As "movements" contract those who remain are naturally more devoted. Devotes what to believe they are relevant. Less voices triggers those who remain to be louder.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#333

Post by rsj_hn »

colinmhayes wrote: post #326
friedman23 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> usually start from an assumption that the core tenets are more or less true. You use this as a criticism of religion but I find it's true of secular people as well who have baseless beliefs that are just as deeply ingrained. Telling someone on hackernews you are religious you will probably get a ton of criticism and downvotes. You know what will get the same reaction? Telling someone you are a moral nihilist. Why i…

People have spent millenia thinking about rational answers to those questions. It's easy enough to find answers, but much like with religion there is no consensus. The answers follow a much more rigorous logic then "god said so" though. I'm not a moral nihillist because that's not a thing, but I am a moral anti-realist because it's clear that there are no intrinsic moral laws. It's all preference based.

It is not all preference based, as very few moral systems lead to thriving societies that are stable and able to self-reproduce rather than collapsing back into chaos. In fact, almost none do.

Take a look at the ten commandments. "Honor thy father and mother so that it may be well with you and you may live long in the land". What happens when generation n+1 thinks they are morally superior to generation n? The same also holds for n+2, and so you do not have a stable society, you have a disintegrating society. Or half the commandments banning envy. Why ban envy and wanting what your neighbor has? Because envy-based moral systems lead to less successful societies than charity based moral systems, where the rich are told they should be generous to the poor versus telling the poor that they have a right to something possessed by the rich. It is not arbitrary -- some ethical codes lead to stable, successful societies and others do not.

One of the problems with modernism is that we have thrown away this notion of reverence and replaced it with a belief in moral progress, which has only led to an ocean of murders and social disintegration. In 10 generations, there will be no modernism left, it will be re-absorbed into more traditional societies, because modernist societies aren't able to reproduce themselves. Not biologically, not ethically, not economically. Yes, there are a few Gene Roddenberry holdouts that believe in generic liberalism as a system on which a society can be based. But the voice of LaFayette is always drowned out by the voice of Robespierre. Lafayette was a fool, thinking that whatever seemed right to him could be the basis of a society.

So it's not so much that I believe I can win an argument with someone who believes moral systems are preference based, but that those who do believe that will simply be outcompeted. Societies in which large numbers hold to such views will be unable to reproduce themselves and they will be eclipsed by societies that adopt ethical codes that form specific templates. A painter can paint a picture of any creature, but actual living, successful organisms are under strict constraints. A philosopher can imagine any moral code, but living, successful societies have to stick to what actually works.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#334

Post by remarkEon »

hackyhacky wrote: post #249
tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted. This is a poisonous reversal of reality, to the extent that I wonder if you're just trolling. Fact is, more religious people, especially the evangelical Christian sect that is most vocal and influential in America, is not about examining implicit beliefs, nor is it ope…

>In contrast, modern secular culture, although not immune to tribalism and ideological blindness, is much more open to building belief through analysis and understanding, i.e. the scientific method.

I think this was true, at a certain point in or for a window of time, but it certainly isn't true today. There are well known axioms that are not-to-be-challenged, and doing so risks expulsion (i.e. Excommunication). So maybe what's happening is Secularism is going through its own phase of Fundamentalist Revival.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#335

Post by sudosteph »

angrais wrote: post #304
sudosteph wrote: post #194

> In his famous “I Have a Dream” speech, Martin Luther King Jr. wished that “one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed.” The very idea that a nation might have a creed—a word associated primarily with religion—illustrates the uniqueness of American identity as well as its predicament. That was a quote from the _Reverend_ Martin Luther King Jr, no less, so it's fair to say he knew the…

You've confused me. Are you saying that "leftists" cannot quote king because he was Christian? Why's that matter? Also, quotes can be used for many purposes outside of their origin, e.g., love thy neighbour, etc.

No, I'm saying that I know actual leftists (not sure what your quotes are for) who will only post King quotes when the topic is "White liberals are unhelpful" and "anti-capitalism", typically only posting quotes which don't include religious terms. Then, they will unironically claim that his legacy is being erased by the folks who only ever quote him from "I have a dream".

To which I say: yes - his legacy is being erased when you intentionally ignore important parts of his character and works. But erasing his Christianity is especially egregious, given how fundamental that aspect is to his entire philosophy and life. His theology is inseparable from his philosophy, and a massive influence for both his anti-capitalism/pro-poor people campaigns and for his racial reconciliation work.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#336

Post by dqpb »

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted.

Religion has one fundamental cognitive device - faith. It’s not a tool, it’s malware.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#339

Post by testplzignore »

tonymet wrote: post #211
gameswithgo wrote: post #123

>The secular world would benefit from adopting more formal definitions of their belief system. Just as the religious world contains Christians, Jews, Scientologists, Muslims, Hindus, et cetc" with sometimes radically different ideas, the secular world too has a great many different people with different belief systems. >If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to rec…

Atheism is actually polytheistic. The Gods can be identified by answering these questions: “why am I here?”, “who am i?”, “what should I do?”, “what is true?”, “why should I suffer & die?”, “what will happen tomorrow?”, “who matters more: myself or others?”. The deities of the secular religion would be “the self”, your parents, “the government/state and its figureheads“ , money (and the institutions controlling it),…

Just because I bathe myself in sheep's blood every time the Federal Reserve changes interest rates doesn't mean I think they are a god.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#340

Post by 8note »

tasogare wrote: post #280

> Secular belief contains rituals, Wearing a mask, new weird handshaking, lockdowns. > origin stories, Not a leak lab, I repeat NOT a leak lab. > deities, saints, Pr Raoult. > priesthood, Doctors, CDC members. > blasphemy, This post. > vice & virtue just as religion does. (Not) taking the vaccine, (not) wearing a mask. It's crazy how fast a new religion can globally emerge nowadays.

Is it still a religious belief if you can conclusive tell that the god exists?

Otherwise, example gods and religions include sitting on chairs

I'd agree that things like the stock market, cryptocurrency, JavaScript, hating "cancel culture", having rugs on your floors, basic arithmetic, fossil fuels, laughing at jokes, having an Instagram, having teeth, not having teeth, and so on are all religions, but religion stops being a useful definition

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