On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#331

Post by didibus » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #128

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #17

There is a lot to unpack here, and it is difficult to know where to begin. I had a friend who was a pastor who lamented he didn't like that his yearly board game get-together with his other [often pastor] friends often ended up discussing their dead bedrooms. I have no idea how these dynamics have come to be so common, even taking into account the usual ebbs and flows in relationships. I don't know if this problem oc…

Religious couples tend to have the most fulfilling sex lives. Conservative religious couples have the best: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7060099/Highly-reli... Myself, as a highly conservative married man, my findings confirm the daily mail article, esp. when I look at the sex lives of my married friends who were more libertine in their youth. EDIT: A few theories: 1. My wife is not on birth control, whic…

That survey describes personal satisfaction. So it doesn't mean that they have more sex, or better sex, simply that to their own standards and expectations they are satisfied with their sex life.

With this in mind, I'm not surprised that religious couple feel more satisfied.

Having said that, maybe society does set unrealistic expectations when it comes to sex, and it's possible that skews people's perspective and make them all feel like everyone else is having more and better sex, which in turn renders them disatisfied.

So I'm not putting judgement either way, but this seem like a good explanation to me.

Another aspect is knowing better. If you've ever only had Nescafé, you'll still enjoy it and be satisfied with it as your daily coffee driver. But if you've had top notch espresso from world class baristas, you might no longer be able to enjoy Nescafé the same way you used too. Does this apply to sex, I don't know fully, but I think it could be, and religious couple would tend to have less points of comparison, so that could similarly drive them to be able to continuously enjoy and be satisfied with what they have.

Don't take my coffee comparison too literal, "better" with sex doesn't mean like better partner or anything like that, I think just means memories of better times you've had having sex, of more excitement, choice, and all that. I know some people who have an ex-girlfriend, or a one night stand where they still remember that as their best sex. It might often be more because they were simply younger and it was more new to them, then anything to do with the person in itself. And clearly those would have been terrible partners for them. But that memory kind of hunts them with being satisfied in their current relationship sexually, as they can't help but compare one with the other.

This is just all hypothetical, don't take it as ground truth, I'm only exploring the phenomenon.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#332

Post by TameAntelope » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #128

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #17

There is a lot to unpack here, and it is difficult to know where to begin. I had a friend who was a pastor who lamented he didn't like that his yearly board game get-together with his other [often pastor] friends often ended up discussing their dead bedrooms. I have no idea how these dynamics have come to be so common, even taking into account the usual ebbs and flows in relationships. I don't know if this problem oc…

Religious couples tend to have the most fulfilling sex lives. Conservative religious couples have the best: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7060099/Highly-reli... Myself, as a highly conservative married man, my findings confirm the daily mail article, esp. when I look at the sex lives of my married friends who were more libertine in their youth. EDIT: A few theories: 1. My wife is not on birth control, whic…

A lot of this stuff is just fact to you, isn't it?

It's hard to engage when some of the things you talk about here seem immutable to you but are not even reasonable points of contention to me.

"Pornography leads to hell" if hell were real and if pornography certainly led to eternal condemnation in hell, pornography would be bad, but neither of those "if" statements really lead for much discussion.

What was the goal of your comment?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#333

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #122

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. This is a bit silly: either it's trivially true but irrelevant, if the claim is that there exist people who can live happy lives without (sexual) relationships; or it's flatly false, if the claim is that everyone can be equally happy without relationships as they would be with them. Relationships bring significant happiness. People who…

[deleted]

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#334

Post by Loughla » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #265

Loughla wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if you just take it at face value, then it could be interpreted that way. I think the problem is that there isn't an easy soundbite that companies can put out to identify how they will impact equality of opportunity, so they take the easy way to seem 'woke' or whatever other adjective you want to put on it, and attack with equality of outcome. I'm not trying to have a 'no true scotsman' sort of thing, but pro…

I agree. How do you propose measuring it if not using the 50/50 metric? Are we already at the point of equal opportunity? If not, why?

>How do you propose measuring it if not using the 50/50 metric?

If I had that answer, I honestly think I would be a billionaire. Really though, I have no practical ideas, because it isn't something I work with regularly. It seems like a sociologist could come up with something, some way to measure sentiment among youth, or something to that effect, but that's beyond me.

>Are we already at the point of equal opportunity? If not, why?

I don't believe so. Even the often touted Gender-equity paradox can be boiled down to gender stereotypes manifesting in individuals' decisions (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/49/31063).

All I know is that I see nearly no women enter STEM majors at the institutions I have worked with, whereas education and social work is almost 100% female. That is lopsided enough to tell me that something is at play here. I just simply am not educated enough to know what, how to measure it, or how to attempt to fix it.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#335

Post by mlyle » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

void_mint wrote: post #120

thepasswordis wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah man I don't think I would classify a committed relationship where partners end up missing their partner when they're gone as "codependent". And honestly this whole trend of laymen trying to psychoanalyze people with whatever toxic psychobabble their read on twitter is getting out of hand. Codependence is when two people have some unhealthy trait that is reinforced by the other person's unhealthy trait. From wiki…

Right, but this is the statement that someone pointed out as a red flag, that you disagreed with > I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. Which is basically the exact definition of codependence.

Look-- my life would be crap without my wife. She's awesome and I am much happier in partnered life. I'd survive and have some enjoyment alone, but most of us end up partnered up because it's a serious buff to life fulfillment.

That doesn't make us codependent, to know that I'd spend lots of time miserable if unpartnered and without my wife in particular.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#336

Post by alex_smart » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

>Lonely? Make strong friendships! Spend your time with other men who like you and enjoy your company and validate you.

Men can feel lonely and unhappy and unfulfilled when they are involuntarily celibate even after having strong relationships with other men and with their families.

This has been my experience talking to hundreds of men in India. India has a strong family culture and a strong culture of strong friendships between men (sometimes even involving completely platonic hand-holding which is perceived as weird by the West) but not much of a culture of dating before marriage. The dating pool has a huge under-supply of women, so most men that do want to date would never find a girlfriend. In my experience, many of these men really struggle with loneliness and self-esteem. Eventually, they give in to the family pressure and just agree to an arranged marriage.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#337

Post by AnimalMuppet » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #134

74d-fe6-2c6 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [obviously misguided] purity culture As far as I understand it celibacy of men devoted to religion or spiritual endeavours is not about "purity" but total focus. And I don't think that is misguided. It's just very resolute.

That was in reference to the evangelical version of those ideas, where the body was inherently sinful. > And I don't think that is misguided. It's just very resolute. Agree. Celibacy is difficult but can teach much.

I don't think that the body being inherently sinful is actually a part of evangelical Christianity. I'm sure there will be some within the evangelical category that teach that, but I think the core evangelical position is this: Sex is for marriage. Outside of marriage, sex is sinful/evil. But within marriage, it is good and to be enjoyed.

Now, you can still think of that as "misguided purity culture", but it's not "the body is inherently sinful".

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#338

Post by alex_smart » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #38

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

What a banal comment. You understand precisely nothing and you start proclaiming solutions that make no sense and then you even have the gal to psychoanalyze the health of the author's relationship. A perfect example of the attitude of some that refuse to even try to empathize with others. Your problem is that you just have no ability to comprehend a situation that is not very similar to your life. So for you, anyone…

100% agreed.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#339

Post by caymanjim » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

> My apologies for the poor-quality clip; the wife has since scrubbed the post and all her comments. For better or worse, this is what remains of this particular piece of internet history.

What kind of asshole takes a deeply personal thing like this, which has been deleted by the original poster, keeps a screenshot of it lying around, and then reposts it as completely unnecessary flair on their blog? Maybe take the hint that she regretted posting it or didn't want it public anymore. Just because technology has all but destroyed privacy doesn't mean that it's ok to take advantage of it and be indecent.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#340

Post by screye » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

tonyp2121 wrote: post #101

the_jeremy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having a romantic ... relationship is not a requirement for a happy life Do you think having friends is a requirement for a happy life? It's not strictly necessary, but they are a positive factor, and most people will not be happy entirely devoid of friendship. Having a partner is a friend you commit to and are closer with than other friends (generalization, sure). I have friends who I would not support through dep…

Why would you not support your friends through depression?

It is one thing to nominally 'support' friends through depression and another help them see it through to an under-defined end.

Supporting a depressed person will inevitably take a huge toll on your own mental health. That's aside from the time and physical effort it would take up. I am assuming that the friend has some understanding of depression to begin with, which from my personal experience is rarely the case.

I have supported a couple of friends through depression, and it is exhausting. In most cases I was only around them for weeks, and it drained happiness from my life. At time I felt like cutting contact, because depressed people are insufferable. The only reason I stayed to help was because I had personally gone through a similar situation recently, and didn't want to wish it on my worst enemy, let alone a friend.

It's like having a special needs child or being the carer for dependent parent. It is easy to say that you'd gladly do it, but the sad reality is you'll find yourself wishing for a better situation (with all the guilt in the world) once you are knee deep in it.