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OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

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Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#331

Post by pas »

systemvoltage wrote: post #281
amzn-throw wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can invest more resources into developing it than the original team ever could. I know this is a popular narrative, but as someone who works on AWS, I think you would be shocked by how small the individual dev teams are that build and maintain the services that everyone uses. I'm not going to downplay the network effects involved. Of course AWS has a tremendous advantage in being able to standardize the custom…

Could you please shed some light on how many people would be behind a product like AWS Lambda or AWS CloudWatch? As an outsider, I would guess huge swaths of developers with a massive hierarchy. Buildings full of folks working on AWS services. I have no idea and extremely curious.

AWS Lambda team 3 years ago on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/aws/comments/7a5anz/we_are_the_aws_...

at least 12 people. Of course they are in turn supported by many different teams, which also consist of who knows how many people.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#332

Post by geerlingguy »

marricks wrote: post #285
dariusj18 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Amazon will of course have a PR statement about how it cares about open source. It's not like Apple is known for it's commitment to open source but it has a similar page: https://developer.apple.com/opensource/

IMO Apple's been a much more active and helpful contributor in the OSS arena than AWS. Though that's not saying much.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#334

Post by rabbidruster »

busterarm wrote: post #309
redwood wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What surveys are you referring to? Got any sources?

the yearly Stack Overflow survey, for one. Find me a bunch of developers and infrastructure people who are EXCITED about running MongoDB. I guarantee you're going to find a 7-10+ year old infrastructure if you do.

This just isn't true. A large number of companies are building new applications with MongoDB atlas

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#335

Post by kizer »

dewitt wrote: post #259
kizer wrote: post #33

What about the thing that is already named OpenSearch?

I’m the co-author and maintainer of the OpenSearch syndication protocol and I posted in support of reusing the name here: https://groups.google.com/g/opensearch/c/gi-iVJZgfdA

Ah, wow. Good to know! :D

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#336

Post by imnoscar »

I want to love elasticsearch and they keep making it harder. On top of this open source backflip, their sales staff would put Oracle to shame. Pressure tactics, making clients pay 5 figures for few hours of ES consultant time, very expensive training/certification (and cert expires every 2 years) - among few of them. AWS gave us consultant time for no charge, guess who we picked to run our ES load.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#337

Post by j16sdiz »

Macha wrote: post #273
DetroitThrow wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, SSPL which Elasticsearch is licensed under isn't AGPL - it's a viral, proprietary license - not quite the copyleft we'd want if we wanted a fair playing field between all actors working on it.

If you think this is about Elastic caring about openness and freedom, ask yourself why they don't drop the CLA for a DCO and let themselves be beholden to the same terms

Counterpoint: FSF and Mozilla require CLA too

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#338

Post by pas »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #301
reflexe wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It it quite funny, elasticsearch is also kind of wrapping an open source library (Apache Lucene) and selling it as their own product.

Very good point. Could Elastic's business model survive if lucene adopted the SSPL license that Elastic has, saying it's the "spirit" of open source? That is an interesting question.

The problem is, that AWS is not really sharing the internals of their fork. Big corps always say that there's no point in open sourcing their fork, because it depends so much on internal systems. Which might be true, but in case of AWS and infrastructure the possibility of an AWS competitor similarly implementing those internal services would probably help the market...

MySQL for example took a proprietary API (the mSQL API) and implemented an open software for it. Then Oracle bought MySQL. MariaDB started and it quickly dropped full compatibility. Options for the developers/users. Great.

AWS/GCP/Azure on the other hand distorts the market. Just as Google/Apple/MS fund Chrome/Safari/Edge development from other sources, thereby distorting the market, forcing browsers to be free as in beer. (Which arguably hurts the market.)

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#339

Post by pas »

sofixa wrote: post #182
ballenf wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Price gouging is the practice of using outsized leverage in a particular market to charge excessive prices. Like snow shovels doubling in price after a snow storm. Or $10 water bottles after a hurricane. So for AWS the term is arguably correctly applied. But I'd be more worried about the market if AWS was artificially undercutting pricing because it would kill the incentive to create competitors or innovation in the…

> Price gouging is the practice of using outsized leverage in a particular market to charge excessive prices. Like snow shovels doubling in price after a snow storm. Or $10 water bottles after a hurricane. > So for AWS the term is arguably correctly applied What outsized leverage have AWS had for a decade? There are multiple competitors at different levels, AWS are just better in terms of coverage/redundancy and amou…

They are meaningfully better only in one thing: size = PR = network effects.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#340

Post by pas »

sofixa wrote: post #186
TechBro8615 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely price gouging. I'm not going to rant about this for the 100th time, but at least I'm in good company [0]. Do the math on the cost you pay if you saturate 1gbps for a month vs. the cost you pay for 1gbps IP transit at basically any colocation provider. Really this is the secret sauce of the cloud. Create new abstraction layers where you can charge for logical separation on a physical basis. First VMs,…

That Twitter thread is only including pure bandwidth. What about all the highly redundant networking equipment ( firewalls, routers, switches, Nitro offloading, DDoS protection, attack detection), software for all those abstractions you get ( VPCs, subnets, security groups, vpc peerings, Elastic IPs etc. ) and engineers? None of what i listed you pay for directly, and bandwidth seems to be the most reasonable product…

AWS has advantage due to economies of scale. (And naturally some disadvantages and challenges due to sheer size, which increases fixed costs, but that means that they can't easily downsize, which doesn't apply since they are still growing at an incredible rate.)

So they should be able to reach the lowest amortized cost for bandwidth with all of those costs included.

They price bandwidth so high because they can and they are still growing.

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